Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[BigJohn]

Don't sacrifice your and your childrens' finances for your W's actions. Is there any way you can lock up your assets so she can't get to them?

Tell her that she is more than welcome to go. However she must find her own way to pay for it because you are saving the money for the children to LIVE on. Refuse to give her a single penny. Change the accounts if need be, but protect yourself.

Maybe setup a small account that's just for her with SOME money inside as an act of good faith, but tell her that she can only deposit and withdraw from that account. Your problem is that you are talking to her like a reasonable adult. She is not. She is a spoiled teenager who is crying when she doesn't get what she wants. You have to be the responsible one. Just do all this very calmly and matter of factly. Talk to her as if you were talking to one of your kids.

Hey Stuck,

Thank you for the feedback. The main issue with my W right now is a lack of motivation- associated with the EA- in looking for a job. Beyond this, she has yet to do anything significant that could be considered financially irresponsible. I will cross that bridge if/when I get to it.

I just can't sit idle while we start to crumble financially. I need her to get her head back in the game enough to function and get employed. Everything else I'm pretty sure I can achieve detachment with.

[MrBond]

Well I would say that your W wanting to leave to date another guy is a pretty damn big financial irresponsibility.

It comes down to this...the money is for BOTH your lives and your kids'. Not just yours and not just hers. All you're doing is protecting that.

You can't control the storm that your W is kicking up. But what you can do is lock the storeroom (finances) shield your kids and buckle down until her storm ends. Her storm will get worse with things flying around, dark skies, thunder and lightning, etc. But you are BigJohn. You are the rock that will not be moved no matter how bad the storm is.

You know what happens to things when they try to go head to head with a storm. They get blown away. And that's what you've been doing with your W. Instead, do the opposite and let her rage, not you. Let her get upset, not you. Let her seem like the idiot, spoiled teenager, not you. In the future, when your kids look back at how you acted now, you want them to be proud and say "that was my dad"! Just think how they're going to look at their mom. Makes you want to laugh.

[sandi2]

BJ, I'm trying to see this in my WAW mode. All she can do is fantasize about OM. Remember when I told you that no man could live up to her fantasy.....includingher OM? I am not suggesting for a second that you finance her trip. But, I am wondering if she saw him, if that would zap her out of that fantasy limbo she's in. From what you've said about his treatment of her, that sounds good for you! I think you are so hurt & angry, you might not see the possibilities here. If the OM is tired of her and verbally disrespecting her, how do you think he may treat her in person? Well, the truth is--it is a huge gamble....but I think she is planning to take this trip at any price. Just my thinking. She "has got" to see him and get a taste of what being with him would be like. Now, what is terrifying to you is the thought of them having sex. Let's be real here. That SOB would probably use her just to get sex! Then he'll dump her. Would you be willing to see that happen if you knew it would save your M? Well....let me put it another way. What could you really do about it if she's made up her mind? Oh, I'm sure you can think of all types of ways to prevent it taking place......just as most men do on matters like this. But, those ways could end with the M in the dumpster. It depends on whether or not the trip and them being togehter would be a "deal breaker" for you. If she goes to see this OM and she gets a good look at what he really is....there might be a tiny chance in her coming back home...ready to love the man who she's M to. This could be the deciding point in both of your lives. You have no power in what she does, but you have power in how you will emotionally deal with the results.

I can hear you now saying, "Sandi, are you actually asking me to sit back and watch my W have a PA with OM and do nothing about it?" No, I'm not asking you to do anything, BJ. I am just talking out loud. This is something, however, I think you "will" have to face b/c I think she "will" go. So, you need to decide if you can act like a hateful, enraged a$$ of a man and try to do everything in your power to physically stop her from going to OM......or think of showing no emotion in her presence and allowing her to make the choice of her lifetime. Don't "enable" her to go, but don't try to force her not to go. Sometimes, just the knowledge that one is "free" to do "whatever"...makes a difference in their actions. As I said......I'm just talking out loud and I can almost hear the screams from others saying that you should "fight" for her, yada, yada. Yes, and you could end up looking like a fool when you aren't able to stop her. You could end up closing a door that can't be reopened. I don't think it will make one ounce of difference at how hard a fight you put up. I think she'll go! (Unless the R between you and W or her & OM changes between now and time for trip.)

So, in whatever remaining days that are left before that time in August comes.....maybe she could see a very charming man who will not presist in talking about her R with OM and be the man she fell in love with. Wonder if he's still around?

You may feel that you have no options here.....but that last statement I made....I see as a big opportunity to make the most of the time left. Whatever you do BJ, I would say that you need to do what you can live with. You have to have respect for yourself......so do what is necessary to have that. I remember thinking I could "force" personal beliefs upon my children and they would comply. When one of them rebelled and didn't comply....then I was determined to show him that I could "make" him do what I wanted. I had a painful lesson in store for me. Sometimes we must stand by as we watch our loved ones learn lessons the hard way. To me, that is one of the "hardest" things to do.......but it is effective!

Take care,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Stuck,

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

Well I would say that your W wanting to leave to date another guy is a pretty damn big financial irresponsibility.

Agreed. Taking any kind of vacation is right now, but particularly to do so in order to see OM.

In the future, when your kids look back at how you acted now, you want them to be proud and say "that was my dad"!

That will be the end result regardless of what happens with my W and our M.

Just think how they're going to look at their mom. Makes you want to laugh.

Actually, it makes me want to cry, but only when I'm out of detachment mode. My W is a good woman and I love her very much. As much as I dislike her behavior and disrespect towards me and our family right now, I can't hate her, I just feel very sad for her. She is terribly mixed up emotionally and possibly psychologically right now. So it is up to me to be the rock that you describe.

[BigJohn]

BJ, I'm trying to see this in my WAW mode. All she can do is fantasize about OM. Remember when I told you that no man could live up to her fantasy.....includingher OM?

Yeah I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one, as wonderful as he is.

I am not suggesting for a second that you finance her trip. But, I am wondering if she saw him, if that would zap her out of that fantasy limbo she's in. From what you've said about his treatment of her, that sounds good for you! I think you are so hurt & angry, you might not see the possibilities here. If the OM is tired of her and verbally disrespecting her, how do you think he may treat her in person?

The problem is that my W appears to accept that from him- she is submissive to him. How do I know this? Because she is following the same behavior patterns as she did when she first dated me- although I didn't exploit or was verbally disrespectful of her like OM is. Which is bizarre given that one of her complaints about our R has been about her deferring to my "stronger" personality. As for treating her in person, given what a scum he is, I'm sure he'll be on his best behavior to try to exploit my W sexually. Understand that OM is a really ugly bastard and big time overweight too. He's the kind of SOB that either has to pay for it, get 'em too drunk to resist or find a woman emotionally crippled enough to give in to him (that'd be my W right now).

Well, the truth is--it is a huge gamble....but I think she is planning to take this trip at any price. Just my thinking. She "has got" to see him and get a taste of what being with him would be like. Now, what is terrifying to you is the thought of them having sex. Let's be real here. That SOB would probably use her just to get sex! Then he'll dump her. Would you be willing to see that happen if you knew it would save your M? Well....let me put it another way. What could you really do about it if she's made up her mind? Oh, I'm sure you can think of all types of ways to prevent it taking place......just as most men do on matters like this. But, those ways could end with the M in the dumpster. It depends on whether or not the trip and them being togehter would be a "deal breaker" for you.

That is a tough question. Don't know if in the totality of the whole sitch it would be the deal breaker. But it would definitely result in major further damage to our M.

If she goes to see this OM and she gets a good look at what he really is....there might be a tiny chance in her coming back home...ready to love the man who she's M to. This could be the deciding point in both of your lives. You have no power in what she does, but you have power in how you will emotionally deal with the results.

True. And I also have a say in whether the kids- her other "crutches" besides OM- go with her. And the answer will be NO. The only benefit I see in my W seeing OM in person is the stark physical contrast between he and I- I'm fit and good looking, he is very fat and ugly. (Yes, I know, its very shallow male thinking. But hey, one of the few things my W hasn't denied is how handsome I still am.... and no remarks about OM in this regard.)

Don't "enable" her to go, but don't try to force her not to go. Sometimes, just the knowledge that one is "free" to do "whatever"...makes a difference in their actions.
As I said......I'm just talking out loud and I can almost hear the screams from others saying that you should "fight" for her, yada,yada. Yes, and you could end up looking like a fool when you aren't able to stop her.

Agreed. I have repeatedly acknowledged to her that she has her own free will to do whatever she wishes and that she is responsible for the consequences of her own actions. However, I can't say that I won't "fight" for her, because I will. But, it will be on my own terms, with class/dignity and within the context of things that I CAN control.

So, in whatever remaining days that are left before that time in August comes.....maybe she could see a very charming man who will not presist in talking about her R with OM and be the man she fell in love with. Wonder if he's still around?

He's still around.... just waiting for (hoping for) the right opportunity to plant a reminder in her mind of that guy.

You have to have respect for yourself......so do what is necessary to have that. I remember thinking I could "force" personal beliefs upon my children and they would comply. When one of them rebelled and didn't comply....then I was determined to show him that I could "make" him do what I wanted. I had a painful lesson in store for me. Sometimes we must stand by as we watch our loved ones learn lessons the hard way. To me, that is one of the "hardest" things to do.......but it is effective!

Agree with all of the above. One of the hardest things I've had to repeatedly accept is watching my loved ones learn lessons the hard way.

Thanks Sandi!

[sandi2]

I have to comment on the "looks". When I had my EA, the OM was not ugly, but he wasn't that physically attractive, either. It really wasn't his looks that I was drawn to at all......it was how he responded to me and how he made me feel. That is what I don't understand about your W in why she would submit to some jerk treating her like OM does. But.....I can't understand that "mentality" of abused women b/c I have never had it or been subjected to any abuse. I can't ever see myself being mistreated like that, so I'm not much help in trying to figure her out.

If she has to rely upon you financing the trip.......I don't think you should give her one red cent to enable that adventure. If OM wants her bad enough, then HE will send her the money to go to him. If she has any brains at all, she will "know" that and expect OM to come across for her. If he doesn't, then (hoping her self-respect kicks in) she'll begin to open her eyes to what sort of person he really is. If I were in her place, my question would be why OM hasn't already come to where I was to be with me. He either doesn't have any money or he doesn't truly want her badly enough. Of course, we both know "what" he is.....so there's no surprise why he hasn't. Just want her to hurry up and have that regester in her mind!

Later,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

I have to comment on the "looks". When I had my EA, the OM was not ugly, but he wasn't that physically attractive, either. It really wasn't his looks that I was drawn to at all......it was how he responded to me and how he made me feel.

Agreed. How the OM makes her "feel" is at the core of her attraction to him.

That is what I don't understand about your W in why she would submit to some jerk treating her like OM does.

From what I know of him, he is narcissistic extrovert who envisions himself as a "big shot". He is 40 years old, never married, has had only two long term relationships, 2 and 4 years respectively. He just ended the 4 year relationship before contacting my W. That relationship ended with him assaulting his girlfriend and breaking her arm. (My W knows about this assault and believes OM's story that he just pushed her, she fell down and broke her arm.) He has worked in the same lumber yard for 20 years. He has no real assets to speak of- he is a renter. He is apparently not a religious man and does not go to church. He maintains pages on Facebook and MySpace among other social networking sites. He corresponds with many single -and apparently married women (aside from my W)- on these sites. Don't know much about his married lady friends but the single ones have pretty slutty profiles that promote "attitude" and selfishness. He has a lot of friends and an active bachelor's life full of fun but no other accomplishments to speak of. He is apparently a bully with a short fuse.

I'm handsome and a successful professional respected in my field. I am an Eagle Scout. I am a hard worker who has provided well for my family with a nice home. I am dedicated to my family, their well being has always come first for me. Like most married salaried professionals, I don't find myself with a lot (or enough) of free time to spend with my family, friends and still get things done. Like many other working professionals, I've found myself in a rut where I haven't spent enough time "smelling the roses". I certainly don't have the enormous amount of free time OM does for fun nor do I spend much time if any on Facebook, MySpace, etc. I am a Christian and attend church every week. I'm confident, but not an extrovert/"life of the party" type. I've got a long fuse, not a bully- in fact just the opposite- but am very capable of taking care of myself.

I don't know why my W puts up with anything from this scum, or why she is so obsessed with him. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact he is the exact opposite of me.

If OM wants her bad enough, then HE will send her the money to go to him. If she has any brains at all, she will "know" that and expect OM to come across for her. If he doesn't, then (hoping her self-respect kicks in) she'll begin to open her eyes to what sort of person he really is.

OM hasn't risked ANYTHING nor has he invested anything but free time exchanging grins/giggles via texting/cell phone calls and email for this "R" with my W. My W on the other hand currently seems more than willing to sacrifice her life along with the lives of our family along with everything we have worked hard for the last 18 years in order to further pursue a R with OM.

Just want her to hurry up and have that regester in her mind!

No kidding, it's like waiting for paint to dry.

[sandi2]

OMG! OM sounds like a nightmare!

You said the words right here:

in fact just the opposite

It is strange to me, but we WAW's seem to pick OM who are just the opposite of our H's. I'm sure a therapist could have a "hay day" with that one! I don't know if the WAW is trying to get as far from her H in her thought process or what the heck goes on. Why on earth would a woman be the least bit attracted to that type of lowlife? Well.....I don't think it is "him" she's really attracted to. I know I keep going back to her fantasy.....but good grief.....I know she has to have a little intelligence for her to be "your" W.

[BigJohn]

I'm sure a therapist could have a "hay day" with that one! I don't know if the WAW is trying to get as far from her H in her thought process or what the heck goes on. Why on earth would a woman be the least bit attracted to that type of lowlife? Well.....I don't think it is "him" she's really attracted to. I know I keep going back to her fantasy.....but good grief.....I know she has to have a little intelligence for her to be "your" W.

Sandi,

I don't know either, it's just bizarre because besides being beautiful, my W is also a smart woman! In fact, keeping in mind the type of guy OM is, I'd like some feedback from you and others as to whether my W might be dealing with something beyond just an EA and/or MLC. Also, I want to share what happened at my weekly IC session this week.

As you may recall, at the end of March, my W discovered OM's intimate online involvement with another woman (who was the creation of my BIL) which resulted in an argument between my W and OM. My W was crushed by the discovery. During a cell phone call, OM ripped into my W verbally and attacked her for judging a single man's behavior (his) while she is cheating on me with him. OM then proceeded to post mocking comments about my W on his MySpace page which included ridiculing my W for sharing with him her feeling that they were destined to be together forever. My W momentarily came to her senses and told me then that it was over for good with OM... until two days later when BIL- driven by guilt- told my W what he had done... which led to a reconciliation between OM and my W again.

In April/May, my W and OM supposedly tried no contact on two occasions "so that she can make a decision with a clear head" however neither attempt lasted more that approximately 2-3 weeks with my W being the one re-initiating contact with OM. Also during that time, according to my W, the OM had repeatedly told her that he does NOT need her in his life- he is already perfectly happy without her. It is also apparent that OM has no intention of relocating to California to start a new life with my W.

In May, I discovered my W doing background checks on the internet on one of the single women OM has an ongoing internet R with. She is younger than my W and judging by her MySpace page definitely the kind of girl OM is really looking for. I asked my W about the background checking on this woman and she admitted being very jealous of her R with OM. I gathered from talking to my W that OM is not interested in dropping his R with this other woman- something my W is none to pleased about.

I can't recall what if anything else significant occurred in June between my W and OM. I am aware that at around the end of June/beginning of July, there apparently was a falling out between the two as W was moping around for 3-4 days. Later, W disclosed to me that OM had told her "I don't want you in my life" but that a couple days later he had agreed to keep in contact with my W after all.

Now to the this weeks IC session. As per my recent posts, my W and I are currently having financial problems due to my W's employment sitch. Given circumstances, talks regarding her employment sitch spilled over into R discussions. Unhappy about those backslides, I invited my W to my IC this week in an effort to have a discussion about employment/finances and avoid any entanglements with regards to our overall R sitch. The convo with my C started OK- we talked about my personal progress then my C asked my W how things were going with her at which point my W stated that she was still pursuing the EA with OM. We then starting discussing finances and my W's employment sitch and that's when my C started questioning the healthiness of my W and I continuing to live under the same roof. My C noted that I had made substantial personal progress and was putting forth tremendous effort in trying to work on our M while my W was doing nothing to work on some of her own issues (possible co-dependency issues). My W then starts telling my C how unpleasant it is to just be living under the same roof with me right now. The next thing I know, my C starts talking about how it might be beneficial for my W to be physically separated from me and go live on her own- something that can't be achieved right now due to finances but something that may be an option if she gets employed again.

At this point, my W starts to cry, states that she has nowhere to go, acknowledges that our current financial sitch doesn't make physical separation possible right now and that she is financially dependent upon me. While I recognize that my C was probably trying to light a fire under my W's a** to get on the ball and get a job, I wasn't happy she chose to bring up separation as a motivator for my W. I think my C- along with some of my friends aware of my sitch- believe that my W would benefit from moving out of the house- ALONE- with the kids and I staying at our home- in order to really "get it" about what she is doing to us and our family.

Towards the end of our meeting, the C suggested that I share some of my M books and possibly put my W in touch with other almost/former WAWs here on the boards. My W declined the offer and responded "I'm not there yet". After we left the C's office, my W asked what caused my (male) friend (mentioned on a prior post)to pull back and abandon his EA/PA with his OW. I told her it was a realization of all of what he had to lose along with the pain he was inflicting on his family, particularly with regards to his three daughters, all of whom became aware of his EA/PA. I asked my W if she was interested in speaking with my friend further about his experience- predictably the answer was "No".

Sandi, I too am beginning to wonder if my W is not necessarily attracted to the OM as much as she is to THE IDEAL that he represents as you may have suggested in a prior post- (despite the fact that she remains adamant that she will NOT give up the EA with OM.) That would kind of make sense as she has stated to both me and OM that it doesn't matter what happens, her/our M is over. Also, she has stated to me repeatedly that she has come to the conclusion that she doesn't think that what she and I want out of life can ever be the same... despite the fact that WE HAVEN'T EVEN HAD A CONVERSATION ON THE TOPIC- YET!

As always, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[sandi2]

Sounds as if she just wants to have an "in-love" experience with some other man b/c she's convincing herself that her M is really over. I do believe she is running after the in-love "dream" and certainly not that creep of in OM.