Going straight forward...antlers 5th thread.

[antlers]

Hi folks.

Want to run something by ya'll. This was my weekend to have the kiddos. Wife called me before we left for vacation and said her folks wanted to come up this weekend for the 4th, and I told her that was fine. I was scheduled to work Saturday also because I was off last 4th of July. So anyway, her mother came up to visit for the weekend, and I was fine with the kids being over there. I had to work Fr, Sat, off Sunday, and back to work again for M, and Tu. I get a text from her earlier today asking if she can bring the kids over to spend the day with me. I said I'm not home, and I won't be back until tonight. She says 'where are you ? This is your weekend to have them.' I said your mother came up to visit for the weekend. And I had to work F, Sa, M, and Tu. She texts back 'yeah and today is Sun your day off and you should have them. You don't communicate anything with me or the kids. They at least have the right to know when you're gone like this. You obviously have something to hide.'

So, she's mindreading and blaming me for the conversations that she's having in her own head!

I'm thinking about sending this back...

Actually wife, we did communicate about this. I was thinking about you and the kids when you asked me about this weekend and your parents coming up...I knew you wanted them to be able to visit with you and the kids for the weekend. I did the right thing for you, the kids, and your mother. Please don't mind-read ("you obviously have something to hide"). If you want to know what I'm thinking, or my intentions...just ask. I'll be glad to fill you in.


What do ya'll think? I'd really appreciate some help/feedback on this! Thanks.




"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.

[antlers]

Hi folks.

Want to run something by ya'll. This was my weekend to have the kiddos. Wife called me before we left for vacation and said her folks wanted to come up this weekend for the 4th, and I told her that was fine. I was scheduled to work Saturday also because I was off last 4th of July. So anyway, her mother came up to visit for the weekend, and I was fine with the kids being over there. I had to work Fr, Sat, off Sunday, and back to work again for M, and Tu. I get a text from her earlier today asking if she can bring the kids over to spend the day with me. I said I'm not home, and I won't be back until tonight. She says 'where are you ? This is your weekend to have them.' I said your mother came up to visit for the weekend. And I had to work F, Sa, M, and Tu. She texts back 'yeah and today is Sun your day off and you should have them. You don't communicate anything with me or the kids. They at least have the right to know when you're gone like this. You obviously have something to hide.'

So, she's mindreading and blaming me for the conversations that she's having in her own head!

I'm thinking about sending this back...

Actually wife, we did communicate about this. I was thinking about you and the kids when you asked me about this weekend and your parents coming up...I knew you wanted them to be able to visit with you and the kids for the weekend. I did the right thing for you, the kids, and your mother. Please don't mind-read ("you obviously have something to hide"). If you want to know what I'm thinking, or my intentions...just ask. I'll be glad to fill you in.


What do ya'll think? I'd really appreciate some help/feedback on this! Thanks.




"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." - William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830's.

Anyone? I could use some help/feedback from you folks. Thanks.

[aliveandkicking]

thinking about it...though not sure if I'm the best one to give advice.

I will say your response needs to be clearer. Like the last misunderstanding, it is hard to figure out what happened here.

In the future you both need to be much clearer and much more specific about what the expectations are.

During initial conversation..."so, you will have them for the whole weekend and I will make up for the time without them another time..." or something like that.

If Sunday is your day, it would easy for her to assume you still wanted it even with MIL in town...can you see your part in the communication breakdown.

Maybe,

"Dear W, it was my impression that you wanted the kids the whole weekend because your mom was in town. I truly thought I was accommodating your request. In the future, let's make sure to clarify exactly what days we are talking about when we change the schedule. There's obviously nothing more important to me than spending time with the kids and I made other plans, giving up precious time with them, because I thought you wanted it. Nothing to hide, just ask me and I will always clarify what my intentions are and what I am thinking.

Best,

Antlers"

Something like that?

[robx]

I kind of liked antler's response myself, AAK, your response sounds a bit like ass kissing and I'm not sure how good an idea that is with a wife that already seems to think she's running the show.

I would say something like, "... you told me your parents were coming to town and you wanted to have the kids so that they could visit with their grandparents and I agreed with that because it's important to me that they spend time with their grandparents as well. This is what you asked for and I agreed with you. Since you had the kids, I made plans to work and occupy my time since I wouldn't have the kids during my weekend. I can't read minds and if you only wanted to have them for part of the weekend instead of the entire weekend with you & your parents, I expect you to communicate that since you were able to communicate to me previously that your parents were coming to town and you wanted the kids to see them. I wasn't being unreasonable when I agreed to what you asked of me so I expect you to be reasonable and not assume that I will be sitting at home doing nothing with my spare time since I didn't have the kids to be with & take care of. This sounds like this was a misunderstanding on both parts so we should just leave it at that because it's not worth arguing over - at least it's not worth arguing from my point of view, we're all adults and we'll get through this."

- that's just me though.

[sandi2]

Hi Antlers,

I wanted to reply to something you posted on Alive & Kicking's thread, but it locked....so I'm glad she has responded here and I can tell both of you together. This really concerned me when I saw this quote.

Kinda confusing to me too, where dishonesty and game playing trump honesty and sincerity! DB'n is good and sound advice, and the principles are solid. I don't know if DB'n really includes dishonesty and game playing! I think you are strong and solid for being sensitive and straight forward! I think you can DB like a mutha...and still be honest, sensitive, and straight forward!

Fist of all....DBing never, NEVER teaches to be dishonest. Nowhere in the book does it say to lie, cheat, or be dishonest. It does teach that the LBS is not required to tell every move that he/she makes in GAL, and it does teach to be mysterious. I have discovered that some people misunderstand and apparently do not know how to do this WITHOUT lying. I don't get it! Can people not figure out how to GAL and be a little mysterious about themeselves without telling a lie?

Now about "game playing". We could call life itself a "game" of sorts but somebody would get offended over that. I even refer to the techniques of DBing as like a "game" but that does not mean it isn't a serious as a heartattack! It is simply a term. Also, just b/c we use the DB principles does not mean for one second that we are not sensitive people! It doesn't mean we have stopped being straighforward people. But let me tell you something........you LBS have to be told this stuff or you will hang yourselves! You see it as being straightforward when a WAS sees it as "needy", "clingy", "desparate", etc. You chase and plead and won't stand up to the WAS and you call it being sensitive and straightforward. Don't forget what works and what doesn't. The tragidy about most of the people who come to the DB board have waited too late to seek this out and by the time they do come and discover all they've done wrong, the WAS is on their way to the D court. So, don't put the principles of DBing down if they don't work in a particular stitch and don't say it is being anything less than truthful.

dishonesty and game playing trump honesty and sincerity

Perhaps some inexperienced or ill advised person has passed that along and it grew out of context....I don't know. But, I believe Michele never intended for anyone to think her DR techniqes are less than honorable.

I do not know where on earth you get this idea from DBing. At times it may sound or even feel like a "game" is being played when you LBS are told to "act as if" when the truth of the matter is they don't "feel" anything that they are advised to do. But, as I told another person earlier, if we do what is right first...then the feelings will follow. That is what I have to do as a former WAW who did not want to stay in her M. That is what DB tries to teach the LBS to do b/c their minds are confused and their emotions are all over the place.

So, there are my 2-cents worth about that.

Sandi

[antlers]

thinking about it...though not sure if I'm the best one to give advice.

I will say your response needs to be clearer. Like the last misunderstanding, it is hard to figure out what happened here.

In the future you both need to be much clearer and much more specific about what the expectations are.

During initial conversation..."so, you will have them for the whole weekend and I will make up for the time without them another time..." or something like that.

If Sunday is your day, it would easy for her to assume you still wanted it even with MIL in town...can you see your part in the communication breakdown.

Maybe,

"Dear W, it was my impression that you wanted the kids the whole weekend because your mom was in town. I truly thought I was accommodating your request. In the future, let's make sure to clarify exactly what days we are talking about when we change the schedule. There's obviously nothing more important to me than spending time with the kids and I made other plans, giving up precious time with them, because I thought you wanted it. Nothing to hide, just ask me and I will always clarify what my intentions are and what I am thinking.

Best,

Antlers"

Something like that?

Hi aliveandkicking.

I trust your advice.

I think it's less of a misunderstanding than last time. Tuning up my response too...to be more clearer.

I agree...we need to be more specific.

Yep...that sounds more specific, and much better.

It wasn't just Sunday...the whole weekend was my weekend! And I gave it up so she and the kids could visit with whichever members of her family came up for the weekend. Why would Sunday be any different than Saturday? I do see that we both could have been more specific.

I like your response. I'm gonna edit it some, and incorporate some of it into my response.

Thanks aliveandkicking. I always appreciate your input.

Hope you're having a good day.

[antlers]

I kind of liked antler's response myself, AAK, your response sounds a bit like ass kissing and I'm not sure how good an idea that is with a wife that already seems to think she's running the show.

I would say something like, "... you told me your parents were coming to town and you wanted to have the kids so that they could visit with their grandparents and I agreed with that because it's important to me that they spend time with their grandparents as well. This is what you asked for and I agreed with you. Since you had the kids, I made plans to work and occupy my time since I wouldn't have the kids during my weekend. I can't read minds and if you only wanted to have them for part of the weekend instead of the entire weekend with you & your parents, I expect you to communicate that since you were able to communicate to me previously that your parents were coming to town and you wanted the kids to see them. I wasn't being unreasonable when I agreed to what you asked of me so I expect you to be reasonable and not assume that I will be sitting at home doing nothing with my spare time since I didn't have the kids to be with & take care of. This sounds like this was a misunderstanding on both parts so we should just leave it at that because it's not worth arguing over - at least it's not worth arguing from my point of view, we're all adults and we'll get through this."

- that's just me though.

Hey robx.

I thought my test response was OK too. I'm trying to use Coach's advice about calling her on it when she attempts to read my mind!

I really like your response too! I'm gonna use some of what you wrote, some of what AAK wrote, and some of what I wrote when I respond.

Thank you for your input...it's always appreciated!

How's it going?

[antlers]

Hi Antlers,

I wanted to reply to something you posted on Alive & Kicking's thread, but it locked....so I'm glad she has responded here and I can tell both of you together. This really concerned me when I saw this quote.

Kinda confusing to me too, where dishonesty and game playing trump honesty and sincerity! DB'n is good and sound advice, and the principles are solid. I don't know if DB'n really includes dishonesty and game playing! I think you are strong and solid for being sensitive and straight forward! I think you can DB like a mutha...and still be honest, sensitive, and straight forward!

Fist of all....DBing never, NEVER teaches to be dishonest. Nowhere in the book does it say to lie, cheat, or be dishonest. It does teach that the LBS is not required to tell every move that he/she makes in GAL, and it does teach to be mysterious. I have discovered that some people misunderstand and apparently do not know how to do this WITHOUT lying. I don't get it! Can people not figure out how to GAL and be a little mysterious about themeselves without telling a lie?

Now about "game playing". We could call life itself a "game" of sorts but somebody would get offended over that. I even refer to the techniques of DBing as like a "game" but that does not mean it isn't a serious as a heartattack! It is simply a term. Also, just b/c we use the DB principles does not mean for one second that we are not sensitive people! It doesn't mean we have stopped being straighforward people. But let me tell you something........you LBS have to be told this stuff or you will hang yourselves! You see it as being straightforward when a WAS sees it as "needy", "clingy", "desparate", etc. You chase and plead and won't stand up to the WAS and you call it being sensitive and straightforward. Don't forget what works and what doesn't. The tragidy about most of the people who come to the DB board have waited too late to seek this out and by the time they do come and discover all they've done wrong, the WAS is on their way to the D court. So, don't put the principles of DBing down if they don't work in a particular stitch and don't say it is being anything less than truthful.

dishonesty and game playing trump honesty and sincerity

Perhaps some inexperienced or ill advised person has passed that along and it grew out of context....I don't know. But, I believe Michele never intended for anyone to think her DR techniqes are less than honorable.

I do not know where on earth you get this idea from DBing. At times it may sound or even feel like a "game" is being played when you LBS are told to "act as if" when the truth of the matter is they don't "feel" anything that they are advised to do. But, as I told another person earlier, if we do what is right first...then the feelings will follow. That is what I have to do as a former WAW who did not want to stay in her M. That is what DB tries to teach the LBS to do b/c their minds are confused and their emotions are all over the place.

So, there are my 2-cents worth about that.

Sandi

Hey Sandi! So glad to hear from you!

I agree that DB'n NEVER teaches to be dishonest! It seems like there is some game-playing, lying, cheating, and dishonesty that goes on sometimes when people are working on themselves and trying to salvage their marriages! My point was that I DON'T think that DB'n teaches that!

After I've screwed up as bad as I have in the past...I choose to be sensitive and straightforward (honest). I appreciate being told the things I need to hear from people like you! I haven't been 'needy, clingy, or desparate' in a good while! I don't feel that way anymore...and I haven't for a good while! I don't 'chase or plead' anymore...and haven't for a good while! 'Standing up' to her is something I have to think about, and handle carefully, because of the controlling and overbearing prick I was in the past! My intentions are to stop doing what doesn't work, and do more of what does work! I think I've been doing OK at that. I for one wish I had known about this site back in December of last year! I could have avoided a lot of the mistakes that I made that only served to push her further away! It's possible that you misunderstood my post Sandi, in that I NEVER put the principle of DB'n down...and I NEVER said they were anything less than truthful. Instead, I supported the principle of DB'n, and said they didn't include any of the negative things that were already mentioned!

Yeah...it was taken out of context, in that I supported the notion that DB'n includes honesty and sincerity and does NOT include dishonesty and game-playing. I think the techniques that Michelle teaches are nothing but honorable.

I don't know where on earth that you get the idea that I feel anything other than what I'm telling you now! I've never said otherwise. I think it's possible that you misread, or misunderstood my post that you referred to! I feel...a lot! I appreciate being given advice from people who are much more knowledgeable and experienced at this than I am! I intend to do what is right...first and foremost, and think I have been doing it for a good while now. That's not to say that I won't make mistakes or mess up! I'm a human being. My emotions are more in check now than they have been since this whole awful episode in my life began.

I'm thankful that you are here Sandi. I hope things are going well with you. Please stay in touch with me! Thanks.

antlers

[sandi2]

That's a relief, b/c I wondered if you got turned around or confused about the concepts of DB principles. I have seen some bad things go out as advice on the board. It is by well-meaning folks and usually it is by a Newcomer who is trying to jump in and give advice. I think they can be compassionate but they need to learn themselves before they are really at a place to advise others. Hope that didn't come across as though I don't think they should say anything, but some people do misunderstand how some of the techniques work. I have been shocked to find out how some things I have said have been misunderstood by the one receiving the post. So, it all goes back to we humans not thinking on the same track.

'Standing up' to her is something I have to think about, and handle carefully, because of the controlling and overbearing prick I was in the past!

Oh, yes, I understand in your case that you have to be careful, but Antlers, your case is not the norm around here. When I was speaking about LBH's standing up to their WAW, I was speaking in general terms. I do hope you will be very careful, however, in trying so hard to show her a softer side to yourself that you don't go too far that direction and allow her to walk on you. That could happen, you know. In "standing up" to the WAW, I don't think that a LBH needs to be over-bearing in order to show firmness and get the respect he should have. In fact, I've told many men to speak in a soft tone of voice to his W b/c that will do more than raising his voice or showing a gruff tone, would ever do.

I don't know where on earth that you get the idea that I feel anything other than what I'm telling you now! I've never said otherwise. I think it's possible that you misread, or misunderstood my post that you referred to!

Maybe I did misread it or didn't get the context you were putting it in. At any rate, I am glad to know that you still belive that Michelle's teachings are based on honor and truth. I was shocked and knew it didn't sound like the Antlers I knew! So, glad we got it cleared up.

Have a good night.

Sandi

[Gardener]

sandi,

....you LBS have to be told this stuff or you will hang yourselves!

This why I follow you (and a couple of others) so much around all of these threads that I'm surprised you haven't called the cops on me yet. Your experience and counsel has been invaluable to me.

At times it may sound or even feel like a "game" is being played when you LBS are told to "act as if"

Am I wrong or is "as iffing" misused a lot around here? Seems to me like many people us it in the sense of act "as if" you'll be okay whatever happens" or act "as if" you're detached, etc., like a "fake it 'til you make it" approach. What I got from the DB book is to, for example, act "as if" your next exchange with your spouse (or whatever) is going to produce the exact outcome or response as what you imagine would be the perfect, successful outcome and you will convey what you want to convey ably, confidently and do your best DBing without obsessing.

Or am I completely missing "as iffing" myself?