Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[BigJohn]

Sandi (and everyone else too),

I spoke to a business associate today who has done some work in the family law arena for quite awhile. I told him about my sitch and he was very concerned about my W's behaviors/attitude- his feeling is that my W may be beyond being caught up in the EA addiction and that perhaps this has progressed into a serious psychological problem for her. He was particularly concerned over my W's continuing obsession with OM and ongoing behavior despite what OM supposedly said to her about not wanting her in his life. We also talked about the effects of my W's self-brainwashing in her continuing behavior- all of the positive affirmations about OM she has repeated in her head over and over again these past six months.

My question to you is whether there are specific indicators I should be looking for that might suggest that my W's condition has deteriorated to the point of a serious psychological problem beyond what we have been discussing? Is there a possibility that my W may be in need of some sort of "de-programming" therapy due to her self-brainwashing? I just have not read enough myself on all of this to know.

BTW, she has not had a physical exam yet to rule out any potential hormonal issues (I know enough to steer way clear of that conversation with her- at least for now.)

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Thinker]

Hi BigJohn,

Sorry to read what you are going through. In many ways, it sounds the same as it has been for me, although my W goes to extreme efforts to conceal and deny what is going on rather being open about her EA (s).

I have had the same thoughts - "How can she be attracted to that Loser?" "This is impossible!" etc.

All I can say right now is "Detach". She has to find her own way out.

[sandi2]

I would just say that the more "off the deep end" she seems to get--the more the red flags are flying. If you feel that she is showing signs of being in a disillusional state of mind, then you need to try to protect her from herself. You need professional advice in how to do that. But first, make sure she is in that frame of mind and needs intervention of some sort. I say that b/c as cold as it may sound.....all LBH's think their WAW has about lost their minds. It can become a very serious matter. I think my family was very concerned about me b/c I was nothing like my usual self.

When you told of how hateful the OM was to her--but yet she continued this "fantasy" about their "love"......it is something (I think) that may merit some type of intervention. I simply don't know. You may have to be the final one to make that call if you do not have support. Is there any relatives or friends that support your feelings about this?

I think there may be at least two options here.....either her going to meet OM and getting "shocked" into reality of what he truly is and feels about her......or have some type of health intervention. I have never suggested that on the DB board where a WAW is concerned (at least I don't remember doing it) but I am concerned about this abusive situation from OM. Even if she went to see OM, she could be placing herself in harm's way. You just never know what somebody else may do. I realize that is thinking in the "extreme scenario". I also wonder if it would do further damage to her mental state if OM was nasty to her. After you spoke to your friend, it has me more concerned than ever. I don't know how you would stop her if she decides she is going. That is what I was thinking the last time I talked about her going to meet OM. Did your friend offer any suggestions?

If you can get more professional advice, that is the route to go. All I can do is try to tell you from my POV, but I'm not a professional and would hate for something really bad to happen to her--(more than already has)--mentally or physically.

I have talked to several LBH's about the hormone problems with women and I know from experience that it has a huge, huge affect on females when the hormone factor is not balanced and working properly. That's why it can seem as if they are going off their rocker! Who could you turn to or ask for help? Could this friend you spoke to give you more details about how or what to do? Where do you stand with her parents and do they have any idea what's going on? (Sorry if you've told me.....I forget.) I feel like I'm grasping at straws, so I can only imagine what you must be going through!! What about your family doctor? Could you speak to him/her about your W and see what could be done? The thing here is the "legal" part of forcing somebody against their will. Of course, you know that.....I'm just talking out loud.

Please let me know if you find somebody that knows what steps to take. I don't know if you'd start with a doctor or lawyer in a case like this. But, my thoughts would be to try to discuss her situation with the family doctor or her gynecologist. You can make appointments to talk about a family member....that much I have done! See what the doc said about a woman that won't see her health needs b/c she doesn't think anything is wrong. You know she's not at herself, so I would start with the doctor.

I wish with all my heart I had the right answers for you, but I am here to support you in this trying time. That doesn't seem much to offer......I wish I could do more.

Let me know as soon as you can.

Sandi

[BigJohn]

Hi BigJohn,

Sorry to read what you are going through. In many ways, it sounds the same as it has been for me, although my W goes to extreme efforts to conceal and deny what is going on rather being open about her EA (s).

I have had the same thoughts - "How can she be attracted to that Loser?" "This is impossible!" etc.

All I can say right now is "Detach". She has to find her own way out.

Thanks Thinker.

I definitely agree with you on the detachment and am working on it. To be fair to my W, she does take some measures to conceal her communications with OM. She has, however, been very frank with me when we have had our R discussions regarding the OM.

As tough as it is to accept, I also know that ultimately it is up to my W to find her own way out of this mess.

Hey I posted a few questions for you about your sitch with your W back on 6/28. Could you take a look at that and give me some feedback?

Thanks again Thinker.

[BigJohn]

I would just say that the more "off the deep end" she seems to get--the more the red flags are flying. If you feel that she is showing signs of being in a disillusional state of mind, then you need to try to protect her from herself. You need professional advice in how to do that. But first, make sure she is in that frame of mind and needs intervention of some sort. I say that b/c as cold as it may sound.....all LBH's think their WAW has about lost their minds. It can become a very serious matter. I think my family was very concerned about me b/c I was nothing like my usual self.

I really hate even bringing up the possibility of a more serious psychological problem with my W, but to me her whole concept and pursuit of this R- along with how she rationalizes it all- seems "delusional". The fact that she continues to pursue OM after he has apparently told her he's not interested and been verbally abusive to her really concerns me, particularly in the context of what I know about OM. It's already an unhealthy R and she apparently still wants to D me and break up our family.

When you told of how hateful the OM was to her--but yet she continued this "fantasy" about their "love"......it is something (I think) that may merit some type of intervention. I simply don't know. You may have to be the final one to make that call if you do not have support. Is there any relatives or friends that support your feelings about this?

I have not discussed this particular concern about my W with anyone. My fears could be completely wrong here and I have no desire to embarrass my W to anyone within our circle of friends and family. Any intervention would likely be limited to me along with any health professional who might evaluate her. Understandably this would be a very tough issue to deal with my W as she would probably feel insulted despite knowing my concern for her and how much I love her.

I think there may be at least two options here.....either her going to meet OM and getting "shocked" into reality of what he truly is and feels about her......or have some type of health intervention. I have never suggested that on the DB board where a WAW is concerned (at least I don't remember doing it) but I am concerned about this abusive situation from OM. Even if she went to see OM, she could be placing herself in harm's way.

I don't think she is presently in a place psychological/emotionally where she could be "shocked" by meeting OM in person. As far as being in harm's way, I don't think OM would risk being violent with my W but being the scum that he is would likely take advantage of her sexually.

I also wonder if it would do further damage to her mental state if OM was nasty to her.

If they meet in person, OM will likely wait to be nasty until after he has had his way with her sexually, they he will dump her and send her home. Hope it doesn't play out that way and she sees him for what he is but that is my fear.

After you spoke to your friend, it has me more concerned than ever. I don't know how you would stop her if she decides she is going. That is what I was thinking the last time I talked about her going to meet OM. Did your friend offer any suggestions?

I may be able to slow her down but I can't stop her. My friend had no suggestions to offer.

I have talked to several LBH's about the hormone problems with women and I know from experience that it has a huge, huge affect on females when the hormone factor is not balanced and working properly. That's why it can seem as if they are going off their rocker!

I am aware of this and recognize it is a touchy subject for women- especially if the subject is first brought up by a man. At the beginning of the EA, I dismissed possible hormone issues with my W as it just seemed too coincidental, happening at the same time as the EA. However as things have progressed I've come to realize that it may be something that needs to be ruled out.

Where do you stand with her parents and do they have any idea what's going on? (Sorry if you've told me.....I forget.)

The family on both sides is supportive of me and the kids. Aside from seeking some initial emotional support from my in-laws, I have ceased communicating with them regarding our M. They know how much I love my W and family and that I will continue to fight like hell for our M.

I feel like I'm grasping at straws, so I can only imagine what you must be going through!! What about your family doctor? Could you speak to him/her about your W and see what could be done? The thing here is the "legal" part of forcing somebody against their will. Of course, you know that.....I'm just talking out loud.

[quote]Please let me know if you find somebody that knows what steps to take. I don't know if you'd start with a doctor or lawyer in a case like this. But, my thoughts would be to try to discuss her situation with the family doctor or her gynecologist.

I agree that this would be a good place to start, having her go in for a physical, but even that might be a hard sell for my W right now.

Thanks for the feedback as always Sandi. I've got several other things that I'm dealing with right now but I'll let you know what I find out regarding the above.

[Thinker]

Hi BigJohn,

I didn't see the questions below until just now.

Hey Thinker,

I noticed in your sitch that OM "fled" on 2/09 and that you are currently still in Limboland. Just curious as to how the dynamics of your R with your W have changed since OM got out of the picture. I ask because I think I'll be facing this at some point in my sitch as well. Did your W grieve after being dumped by OM? Looking back, was there any window of opportunity that may have been seized at the time OM left that might have turned things around for you and W rather than your R with your W going into Limboland?

I'm concerned about the possibility of OM dropping my W then my W starting to search for a replacement for OM, perhaps here locally. As I mentioned in an earlier post, my W has told both me and OM that she will find someone "just like him (OM)" if it doesn't work out with him (OM).

In my sitch, OM fled because I exposed the EA and threatened to expose him. I think that my W blamed me for the loss of her R with him.

She definitely went into a grieving period, and I am not sure she ever came out of it. I know she still thinks of him, looks at pictures of him, etc. She denies this all and say's it is completely over, but...

She also strictly maintains that OM was not (never was the problem) and that the M was dead before OM, and that now that OM is gone the M is still dead.

I believe she is still wishing to rekindle something with OM or find something else.

Ending the R with OM pushed us into an extended limbo period, where she was unwilling to come back into the R or to put any effort into it, but was also not ready to leave. We have been languishing there, with the R dying a death by a thousand paper cuts.

I never saw a real chance to rekindle things, but my sitch was a bit different because after OM cut things off, my W suffered a number of blows that further damaged our R: Our baby son was injured and had to go to the hospital, her mother was diagnosed with cancer, etc. Each one caused her to withdraw a bit more.

Sorry for the "bad news" - my sitch is not yours. I have reached the point where I am at my limit. I can't keep watching things get slowly worse.

[sandi2]

At the beginning of the EA, I dismissed possible hormone issues with my W as it just seemed too coincidental, happening at the same time as the EA. However as things have progressed I've come to realize that it may be something that needs to be ruled out.

But to me....."this" is a sign that her hormones are not balanced. Something is out of whack and you are seeing the "outside" results of her weird actions. It may sound as if I am blaming misconduct on hormones and using that as an excuse, but it's not in all cases. I do believe a female can get really mixed up and not be her normal self. Due to the proper hormones, she feels depressed and unhappy and therefore seeks out somebody to fill that need. But, you are right, you aren't the one to try to talk to her about this b/c WAW's have a tendency to get pretty anger when a H wants to suggest she see a female doctor.

My greatest fear was my relatives/friends finding out about my EA. However, she seems to be ready to go public with this if she's going to go meet him and talking so frank about it. What do you think? Do the two of you have a couple who are your best and dearest friends?

Talk later,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Thinker,

Thanks for getting back to me on that. I'm sorry to hear where you are at with your R with your W. I'd really like to see my W's OM kill the EA once and for all- everyone but my W understands that he's got other women he is stringing along, most of whom are either younger and/or far more accessible. I'm not holding my breath just yet though- OM is a selfish bastard relying on my W and other women to boost his ego/self esteem- no matter what the cost to anyone else. And of course my W is oblivious to all of it.

I sure hope my sitch doesn't develop like yours has as my W has already told me (and apparently OM) that it doesn't matter if they (she and OM) get together or not, our M is done. I could see things possibly going in that direction given that from my W's perspective the OM has "raised the bar" (totally unrealistically) with regards to an "ideal" R. (Not that my W and I can't eventually have an OUTSTANDING M -but in the real world it takes work.)

So given where you are at now, any ideas on how you will proceed from here? As mentioned in my prior post, my C is of the opinion that my W ought to eventually move out on her own, presumably as a sort of reality check amongst other reasons. BTW, has your W done any serious due diligence regarding the consequences of D that you are aware of? Despite all her affirmations of wanting to (eventually) D, my W hasn't done a damn thing in this regard. I know of course that would be part of rational thinking on the part of our almost-WAWs, but just curious.

[BigJohn]

My greatest fear was my relatives/friends finding out about my EA. However, she seems to be ready to go public with this if she's going to go meet him and talking so frank about it. What do you think? Do the two of you have a couple who are your best and dearest friends?

Sandi,

Although my W can speak frankly to me at times about OM, she is relatively discreet in her contacts with him. In fact she has made comments to me that suggest that she would be very discrete about meeting him in person (assuming they eventually do). Furthermore, back in March when she was at the height of her "addiction" she mentioned that she saw herself going out on the sly with OM for some time before introducing him to our kids. (This was part of her earlier fantasy of permanently relocating to her home state with my kids to be with OM before I informed her she couldn't legally do that.)

The impression I've had is that while my W seems to be genuinely "crazy" about OM, I don't think she assigns a lot of pride in being seen with him, at least people whom she respects. This was true when she went out with him 20 years ago before meeting me- she never introduced him to her family despite supposedly going out with him off/on for 1 1/2 years. On the other hand, she introduced me to her family soon after we started going out and has never had a problem feeling proud to be on my arm. As a matter of fact, I asked my W not to long ago if she would feel proud to hang on to OM arm if they were to get together- she didn't respond. Your thoughts?

[Thinker]

I could see things possibly going in that direction given that from my W's perspective the OM has "raised the bar" (totally unrealistically) with regards to an "ideal" R. (Not that my W and I can't eventually have an OUTSTANDING M -but in the real world it takes work.)

I really understand that feeling - your spouse dreaming along about perfection and completely ignoring reality...

However, please don't let it get in the way of your own work. You can complain about the unfairness of being compared with a fantasy all day long (I know) and it won't get you anywhere. Remember that OM can't compare to the fantasy either - no one can. Do the work on yourself. Everyone has room for improvement, so do it - for yourself.

So given where you are at now, any ideas on how you will proceed from here? As mentioned in my prior post, my C is of the opinion that my W ought to eventually move out on her own, presumably as a sort of reality check amongst other reasons. BTW, has your W done any serious due diligence regarding the consequences of D that you are aware of? Despite all her affirmations of wanting to (eventually) D, my W hasn't done a damn thing in this regard. I know of course that would be part of rational thinking on the part of our almost-WAWs, but just curious.

I believe my W has also not done any due diligence, calculations etc - or really any work at all in the direction of D. She has asked me on several occasions to move out - in other words, asking me to do the work of leaving and of figuring out a way to make the finances of two households work, etc, leaving her whole in her current life and lifestyle. I politely declined, so here we still are in Limboland.

Again here, focus on yourself. Figure out what you need to be a whole, happy person - without needing your W or anyone else. Make the changes. If you do this, really do this, one of 3 things will happen: 1) your W will notice and come back. 2) You will realize that you are really happier without your W. You may actually become a WAS yourself - but not based on fantasy, based on a realistic view of the situation and your needs 3) Your W may leave you for this OM or another one. Remember, even if this OM drops her, she may just start looking for another. In this case, you will be strong, be able to move on, and be able to support your family through it.

You can't choose which outcome will happen - 1, 2, 3. In all 3 cases, working on yourself is the best thing to do.