Even by phone, you're going to be way too emotionally invested to be able to be dispassionate. Why not just leave the negotiating to the Ls??
Yes, you can get some revealing intel out of such a conversation, but so can an atty get it from the other side's first offer. I guess I just don't see the benefit of such a direct conversation, esp. considering her "batchitcrazy" prior history, and can definitely see a lot of potential downside!
When it comes to sex, men are like microwaves, women are crock pots.
When it comes to emotional sharing, women are like hummingbirds and men are turtles.
It comes down to patience, respect and knowing the other's needs.
*hugs*
Here's my $.02 regarding women's attractiveness to men.
There are obviously 2 sides - physical and emotional. Most of the posts to date were regarding the physical side - stay in shape, dress attractively, don't just be "a mom" etc. I agree, but focus on the other side.
So many of the posts about how men stay attractive focus on Strength, Assurance, and Self Confidence - lose that, and you lose attractiveness to Women. I think that for men, the attraction is the flip side. Men are attracted to Women who make them feel strong, capable, and self-confident.
I think this is why there is such a stereotype of men having affairs with their secretaries.
The secretary looks up to her boss, she compliments him, she helps him get prepared so that when he goes to a stressful meeting he looks good and feels confident. In his relationship with her (still strictly professional) he feels strong, healthy and confident. He can take on the world. Then he goes home...
When he get's home, the story is reversed. Why are you late?! You haven't done X yet! The Y is a mess!. The W may have valid reasons for being angry, but the constant criticism makes the H feel like a failure. His self confidence is eroded. He feels weak.
So it may make men seem shallow, but I believe men are attracted to women who show open admiration for the man, belief in his abilities and honest appreciation for what he does for the family. Conversely, angry criticism is a real turn-off.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
Her trust: He wants to be trusted, that he will do the right thing, that he can make the right choices, that he will be faithful, that he is a man of character, that he is a good father.
Her respect: He wants her to respect him for his accomplishments as a man, a husband, and a father.
Her femininity: This includes her looks, as well as her attitude. He doesn't want her to wear the pants, nor to try to (except, see next item below).
Her resiliance and strength: He DOES want to know she is strong and will not crumble in a crisis, in case she has to carry the load for a bit if he has a temporary setback.
Her support: He wants to come home and feel like she is welcoming him, not ready to jump down his throat with complaints or a to-do list. He wants to overhear her compliment him to her friends or his.
Her guidance: Men do (secretly, inside, shhh, don't tell anyone) recognize that women have strengths where men have weaknessess, and they do want her to gently guide him and be his life coach at times when it is needed. They want this to be done in a fair and honest way, not to be used as an excuse for her to be demanding or try to change him.
Her sexuality: Men want women to be comfortable with their sexuality and to shine it upon them like a ray of light. They want her to sexually respond to him and to desire him, and for her to show him these things. Men do not want a woman who is only present during sex "for him", they want her to want it for herself. They also secretly want to believe she "only wants him" and no other, so if she can somehow create this thought in his mind, he will really love it.
Her receptiveness: A man will pursue a woman he loves and he enjoys the pursuit. In return, he needs her to be receptive to his pursuit.
Her understanding of his man needs: A man needs down time, he needs to pull back sometimes and head to his cave. He needs his woman to understand this and not chase behind him, trusting that he will come back when he is refreshed.
Her patience: If he messes up, a man needs his woman to be understanding and to be patient with him. If she is patient with him (but not a doormat), he is more likely to get better over time with certain behaviors.
- - - - -
Of course, many of the above go both ways and a woman wants the same...but SP asked us to tackle what men want in women, so that's my submission.
@Puppy -- why no L at this point? Because we're still trying to get sorted out via mediation. The more we can bring solved to the table, the less $ we have to spend. The guy's on retainer; he'll consult on any agreements to be signed. But I'm going to be p*ssed regardless; she's going to be p*ssed regardless. At this point we do have something in common -- we're both too cheap to want to pay some folks to watch us be p*ssed. We can do that for free
So it may make men seem shallow, but I believe men are attracted to women who show open admiration for the man
I'd prefer to wait for @Kettricken, but I think she and I see eye-to-eye on this topic generally, so let me say that from my POV this is shallow. In fact, I would go so far as to say that, in many instances, "open admiration" is a substitute -- and a poor one -- for precisely the qualities that so many here say are "desirable" in a man: Leadership, Strength, Masculinity, etc.
Recall the nasty-grams I got from some who shall remain nameless concerning my Florence Nightingales. This was "shallow!" I was merely "puffing myself up!" It was phony validation! Ego-stroking!
Well what you're describing above seems an awful lot like that to me. I believe the old saw about Mr. Businessman and his secretary reflects Mr. Businessman's lack of self-confidence (read Sloan Wilson's once-famous, now largely forgotten, The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit, for example). He picks on the under-educated, wide-eyed ingenue pecking at her IBM Selectric or changing tape reels on the UNIVAC because she offers admiration and validation -- all the things he doesn't get in his "real" life.
To me that's every bit as phony and superficial as anything I was accused of. Ben Franklin, old Poor Richard, noted that "admiration is the daughter of ignorance," and Dr. Johnson observed that "admiration begins where acquaintance ceases."
I don't want to be admired. I want to be known. "Known" used there in much the same way that MWD uses "heard" when discussing listening to one's spouse.
I don't want to be admired. I want to be known. "Known" used there in much the same way that MWD uses "heard" when discussing listening to one's spouse.
Appreciated Seen Heard Understood Loved Accepted
I agree SP. I want to share with my wife what I am doing, learning, letting go of and looking forward to.
From the smartmarriages.com site:
Quote:
Why is it that people get married? Because we need a witness to our lives. There’s a billion people on the planet. What does any one life really mean? But in a marriage, you’re promising to care about everything… The good things, the bad things, the terrible things, the mundane things, All of it… all the time, every day. You’re saying “Your life will not go unnoticed because I will notice it. Your life will not go unwitnessed - because I will be your witness.” Wife in the movie, "Shall We Dance?" 2004
Cheers
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Me-40 W-41 Together-10 M-8 S-6 S-4 Bomb 5/08 Bomb 10/08 Thought things were better, was wrong. Still living together Wife doesn't think she will ever love me again.
Are we talking about "Evolved Men" or men in general?
In fact, we're not supposed to be talking about men at all.
I challenged the Man Up promoters to define what they consider to be the characteristics of a "proper" or "correct" woman. The analog to Strong, Masculine, etc.
So far, not so many takers. Because it's dangerous, you see? Who wants to step up and say, "Ladies, your husbands left you because you're not "woman" enough?"
Not me, brother. But note that such a sentence would be, by symmetry, the perfect analog to "Gents, your wives left you because you weren't man enough." Which is, let's face it, the Cliff's Notes version of the story promoted by the Man Up crowd.
