Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[sandi2]

I don't think I mentioned this before, but our 17 year anniversary date falls within the middle of her vacation and I'm not sure exactly how I should handle that. I've thought of giving her a happy anniversary card before she leaves- I don't expect one from her- but I'm wondering if that might be provocative. It has also been suggested to me that I do give her a card and enclose a heartfelt letter with it but I'm thinking that may too much.

Don't do anything about the anniversary "before" she leaves. That is pursuing and nothing you say or any card is going to do what you want it to do (IMO). Wait and see if she calls while she's gone.

Give her almost all day and then if she doesn’t call you, and you’ve not heard anything about the OM and the A, I’d TM her and simply say that you were thinking of her while the two of you are apart on your XXth anniversary. You could always have something “waiting” when she got back home IF she doesn’t proceed with a PA.

Isn’t it ironic that she is planning this trip to have a PA and has left to go to a church camp? God may really convict her heart about what she’s doing, but most of it will have to be in how much she’s willing to open her eyes and see this stitch for what it really is and stop her fantasizing about OM. It would be “easy” to get caught up in the spiritual side of things while she’s out there out of reach of her real world and is “safely guarded” (so to speak). But when she comes back from camp, then she may quickly revert back to how she was before. I’ve discovered that when we are on a spiritual mountaintop that things are a lot easier than when we have to walk back down the mountain and go into the valley! The valley will be her test. We will pray that she will not only get her heart right with God, but that she will get enough spiritual courage and determination to fight the battles of temptation she’ll have to face. Most of those things don’t just disappear and we have to face them in order to be stronger. But, it is possible, and I sure hope it happens! Oh, now don’t I just sound sooooo wise??? (lol)

[sandi2]

Think I need to add a little more about the anniversary. That trip (if she goes) will determine the outcome of your M, I would think. Therefore, if she had the gall to “complain” about you not sending her a card or calling sooner on the anniversary, I would have to remind her that she made her intentions very plain and that any anniversary card/gift/etc., would have seem rather inappropriate under the circumstances.

I’ve seen so many of the LBH’s want to use the wedding anniversary as a reason for “action” on their part. Long, miserable hours have been endured by a lot of H’s wondering what to do. Many of them were advised not to do anything but send a TM….or at the most, a simple non-romantic card. So many of the men would end up doing opposite of what they were advised, but they couldn’t seem to control their desire to use that opportunity (as they saw it) to make a move. The W, however, saw it as pursuing.
Wait and see how things go. If she even uses the excuse to go to her parents and take the kids to visit, yet claims she won’t contact OM, you may have to decide what to do at that time. Here’s hoping a lot will happen between now and then.

[BigJohn]

Don't do anything about the anniversary "before" she leaves. That is pursuing and nothing you say or any card is going to do what you want it to do (IMO). Wait and see if she calls while she's gone.

Give her almost all day and then if she doesn’t call you, and you’ve not heard anything about the OM and the A, I’d TM her and simply say that you were thinking of her while the two of you are apart on your XXth anniversary. You could always have something “waiting” when she got back home IF she doesn’t proceed with a PA.

Sandi,

I do recognize the card and/or letter as pursuing, I only gave it consideration because of our anniversary. I like the TM idea if no response from her by the end of the day- good suggestion. This is how I'll handle it.

Isn’t it ironic that she is planning this trip to have a PA and has left to go to a church camp? God may really convict her heart about what she’s doing, but most of it will have to be in how much she’s willing to open her eyes and see this stitch for what it really is and stop her fantasizing about OM. It would be “easy” to get caught up in the spiritual side of things while she’s out there out of reach of her real world and is “safely guarded” (so to speak).

I'd say it's ironic too, but since God had a hand in bringing her and OM together at this "crossroads" in her life(her perspective), I'm sure the rationalization of the EA won't miss a beat during camp. BTW, I was mistaken about cell reception at the camp- she TM me late last night saying she got to camp OK. So much for her being "safe" from the outside world while at camp this week. No doubt she'll be TM OM while there.

But when she comes back from camp, then she may quickly revert back to how she was before. I’ve discovered that when we are on a spiritual mountaintop that things are a lot easier than when we have to walk back down the mountain and go into the valley! The valley will be her test. We will pray that she will not only get her heart right with God, but that she will get enough spiritual courage and determination to fight the battles of temptation she’ll have to face. Most of those things don’t just disappear and we have to face them in order to be stronger. But, it is possible, and I sure hope it happens! Oh, now don’t I just sound sooooo wise???

Agreed. The best way to avoid temptation is to run away from it, not run towards it. I'd like to see her come back from camp with that realization in mind but I don't see it happening. This trip in August is her Super Bowl- she is going come hell or high water.

.....And you ARE wise.

Think I need to add a little more about the anniversary. That trip (if she goes) will determine the outcome of your M, I would think. Therefore, if she had the gall to “complain” about you not sending her a card or calling sooner on the anniversary, I would have to remind her that she made her intentions very plain and that any anniversary card/gift/etc., would have seem rather inappropriate under the circumstances.

It will be interesting to see if she does or says anything regarding our anniversary. I kind of doubt it given her past performance on my B-day and Father' Day (nothing).

I’ve seen so many of the LBH’s want to use the wedding anniversary as a reason for “action” on their part. Long, miserable hours have been endured by a lot of H’s wondering what to do. Many of them were advised not to do anything but send a TM….or at the most, a simple non-romantic card.

It's funny you mention a simple "non-romantic" card- I was looking for one of those among the anniversary cards at the Hallmark store yesterday and simply couldn't find one. Plenty of romantic cards though. You'd think by now someone would've thought to produce "Thinking of you while you stab me in the back" type of cards.

[sandi2]

Plenty of romantic cards though. You'd think by now someone would've thought to produce "Thinking of you while you stab me in the back" type of cards.

I think in a case like that, you would need to go to Walmart and use that machine where you can put your own wording on the card!

I know I should not have laughed b/c you weren't trying to be funny, but it hit my funny bone anyway.

[BigJohn]

Plenty of romantic cards though. You'd think by now someone would've thought to produce "Thinking of you while you stab me in the back" type of cards.

I think in a case like that, you would need to go to Walmart and use that machine where you can put your own wording on the card!

I know I should not have laughed b/c you weren't trying to be funny, but it hit my funny bone anyway.

Sandi,

Actually I WAS trying to be funny, I'm glad I made you laugh! As serious as my sitch is, sometimes I just have to shake my head and consider how RIDICULOUS it all is. Then when I see a picture of big fat goofball OM, it's like come on, are you kidding me??? Unbelievable. I know my W is pushing OM to lose weight/get in shape but even if he gets trim, he still is damn ugly. I'm really starting to think of this guy as my W's dirty little secret...kinda like how some people hide their pornography out of shame/embarassment. Then again maybe it's just a case of love is blind...REAL blind <sigh>.

Anyways, I wanted to follow up with you on a question I had posed in an earlier post:

One thing that a couple of people have suggested to me is to make one, possibly two statements to my W shortly before she leaves for her trip in August. No further discussion- just one or two statements. The first statement to my W would be to tell her that I don't know for certain whether I would be able to reconcile with her if she has sex with OM. The second suggested statement- made in conjunction with the first- would be to tell my W that if she either contracts an STD and/or becomes pregnant by OM, it will definitely end our M. (Both of these statements are true BTW.) Sandi, what do you think about this idea? I'm considering it because although my W very likely knows my feelings already, I want to make sure that she understands my position without a doubt. I do NOT want my W misinterpreting my detachment as me completely "giving up" on our M... and I have a suspicion that this is how she may be reading me right now. On the other hand, I don't want such a statement/s to come across as either a "dare" to my W or given her screwball condition, confirmation to her of how best to go about getting me to file for D- instead of her. What do you think?

Yes, I know that the above would generally fall in the "Do Not" category on your list. But should I make an exception given the circumstances?

[sandi2]

First of all, do you know exactly what the deal breaker in the M would be for you? If you aren't sure, then you may have to decide. Perhaps you don't know "until" it happened.

I have to remember my state of mind when I was in that WAW mode and if my H was to say anything to me that sounded as if it was a threat or a "dare" then I would react. I may not say anything to him in a reaction, but in my deeds. I will get back to you in a little while about this, but be let me know if you are sure about the what the deal breaders would be to make you leave the M.

[BigJohn]

First of all, do you know exactly what the deal breaker in the M would be for you? If you aren't sure, then you may have to decide. Perhaps you don't know "until" it happened.

I have to remember my state of mind when I was in that WAW mode and if my H was to say anything to me that sounded as if it was a threat or a "dare" then I would react. I may not say anything to him in a reaction, but in my deeds. I will get back to you in a little while about this, but be let me know if you are sure about the what the deal breaders would be to make you leave the M.

Sandi,

If my W contracted an STD and/or got pregnant by OM, it would almost certainly end our M for sure. I believe these two circumstances are beyond my current patience/tolerance threshold. If there were multiple sexual encounters, I'd say right now there would be a better than 50% chance that would end our M. I'm not sure yet how I'd react to 1-2 sexual encounters or how that would impact our M.

BTW, any of the above would result in my W losing her membership in our church- something that she continues to maintain is very important to her and is currently a factor in her fantasy with OM (she would ideally like to marry him in our church if she could get rid of me and take the kids out of state). However I don't believe our church is as important to her as OM, at least not right now.

Also, another important piece of information I keep forgetting to pass along to you. My W is in "competition" for OM's affection with a younger, single woman he is also engaged in an internet romance with. My W became aware of this other woman early April, has visited her (OW's) MySpace page numerous times and has done internet searches on her. My W has openly admitted to being jealous of this other woman's relationship with OM. From what I can gather, OM has played up his relationship with this woman with my W to the point where my W considers this woman a serious threat to her fantasy R with OM.

My W also appears to be trying to "model" certain aspects of this other woman- buying and wearing the same sunglasses this other woman wears in her MySpace photos for example. I've also sensed my W attempting to adopt this other woman's "attitude"/beliefs as articulated on her (other woman's) MySpace page: proud/assertive/narcissistic "Bitch".

I know, just when you thought it couldn't get any worse with my W's mental/emotional state. Don't know what else to do outside of taking care of myself and my kids. I've presented my W with all of the resources one could offer her to help with this sitch and she has rejected them all. I have to admit, the thought of a serious "intervention" for my W does cross my mind from time to time.

My W has so much to lose- I truly believe she won't realize what she has sacrificed until it is too late. I hope it doesn't come to that. Look forward to hearing your thoughts regarding my original question along with the new information above.

[sandi2]

Hi Big John,

This is a tough question. I think I know how desparately you want to stop your W from going on this trip to meet OM. After you told me about OM's younger OW, I think your W will be more determined than ever to pursue him,b/c now it is more than just her fantansy "love" for OM, but it involves a competition to “win” this man from a woman who is younger than her, so she has a lot of ego at stake here. I’m really sorry to here about this younger woman b/c it makes “winning” important to your W. What both of us know, is that the OM probably has more than these two women on his string. When you described him to me, I figured that the only R’s he has is with women over the Internet.

I have tried to think about your stitch as if I were the WAW here. Apparently she has been so open about her EA and talked about her OM to the point of being brazen. To me, that is a form of showing disrespect…but then so is having an EA. Anyway, in her eyes your M is over and she thinks she is going to live happily ever after with that OM. You have said all you know to say except for the last part of not knowing how your M will survive if she gets pregnant or a STD. If you tell her this last part (in hopes that she will reconsider meeting with OM) I really do not believe it will stop her. These are my thoughts behind that reasoning:

1.In her mind, the M is over anyway, and she is moving on with a new chapter with OM.
2.If you tell her you aren’t sure if M will survive if she gets pregnant or STD…it is kind of like saying that you will take her back if she screws around a couple of times, but no more than that. That puts you in a disrespectful and unattractive position. Makes you look “needy”. I know you don’t mean to imply that you are giving your permission for her to have a PA as long as it’s just a few times and as long as she doesn’t get pregnant or STD, but it may sound that way to her ears. Remember, she is not thinking rationally so you can’t talk relationally to her and expect solid results.
3.I do not think anything you say is going to stop her now. Unless she has a spiritual awakening at the camp this week, I don’t believe any words from anyone will prevent her from meeting OM. She feels this is her “destiny”. She thinks this is her second chance at happiness.
4.She has no desire for a R with you and therefore she is not going to be influenced at what you say about your future with her. It is over, in her mind, so it won’t be important to her. She won’t be afraid or concerned.
5.This younger OW has put an entirely new light and intensity on the “battle” for OM. It is very important to your W that she can win this competition b/c she is the older woman here and what better ego boost (in her opinion) could she have than to think she won OM from a younger contender.
6.Your W feels “driven” to meet this OM. She is in so deep that she cannot “see” and she cannot “hear” anything her family says, so I really do not think an intervention would cause her to stop her A with OM. If anything, I believe she would think those in the intervention were her enemies and she may think she “has” to leave forever. Even if her children were to make threats that they would cut her out of their life, it “might” put off her trip for a while, or it may slow things down in the EA for a couple of weeks, but she would only resort to being more sneaky and concealing her contacts. When a woman is as mixed up as your W, she would choose OM over anyone…even her children. This is extremely hard to hear, but you have to keep reminding yourself that she isn’t the person you M and have loved all these years. She isn’t the “mother” she’s always been or she would not be able to do what she’s doing.
7.Even if the intervention was her Pastor meeting with her about her membership in the Church, it would cause her to make a visible decision and even though she stands to lose so much, I think she would still contact OM…either in August or later on. It is something that nobody understands how a woman could do what she does. How could she give up everything for that sorry excuse for a man? It isn’t “him”, the person; as much as it is the fantasy she has built in her mind. That OM is nothing like her fantasy, but she has not seen it for herself. That is what you have to decide if you can risk with her going to see him. Will that get her eyes open to the truth? But now that I know about this younger OW, it makes things worse…as far as your W getting her eyes open. However, maybe the OM will dump your W and be ugly enough that it will shock her back into reality. I’m afraid that he will have sex with her, first, then dump her.

So, I have repeated a lot of things I have said before, but was trying to list the thoughts I had about it. After thinking this over, I believe that you saying absolutely NOTHING about the trip, OM, a possible PA, her parents, the anniversary……would have a stronger influence. If she comes back from camp and mentions OM or the trip in any way, I believe if you just keep your mouth closed and don’t react in any way…she will notice that quicker. Not responding in any fashion makes a very loud statement! Don’t act as if you are pouting, mad, jealous, or any other emotion. I would tell you to leave the room, only she would think you were mad or one of these other emotions. If you don’t show anything, then she will put more thought on wondering about it. Don’t fall into a trap of her “asking” you why you aren’t saying anything about her leaving on the trip, etc. Simply reply that she knows your feelings about “everything” and you aren’t going to continue to tell her again.

Big John, unless she has a huge turn around at the Church this week, then I think if there was ever a time for you to drop the rope and go on about your life for her to “see” that you don’t care what she does anymore…then this is the time to do it. You are worried about detaching. You’re concerned she thinks you’ve given up on the M. All LBH’s who are not truly detached think this way! Sweetie, you are not detached. You have tried, but you’ve not made it. Perhaps you appear detached to her…but I doubt seriously that you do b/c she knows you. She can read you like a book. All she has to do is look at your eyes and she knows you are dying inside. Can’t you see that it only makes it worse with you holding tightly on? I can read your fear in your post as it grows closer to the time for her to leave, and I believe she can see that fear in you. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to hide it! However, if you can at least pretend to drop the rope, then that will have a greater impact on her-- than you worrying that she thinks you’ve given up. You aren’t looking at it from the right angle. When a WAW thinks you no longer care what she does b/c you are going to live your life without her in it…then that gets her attention! You are afraid to believe that. You have been too afraid to do that b/c of your fear of losing her. I think you will be too afraid to do it now b/c you feel that you have to make some “last stand” for your M. Has anything you’ve done toward showing her your “stand for the M” worked yet? No, it hasn’t. I will not tell you that you MUST drop the rope or all is lost… b/c if she went on with the PA and things turned out badly, you would always believe it was due to dropping the rope instead of showing her that you still cared. To me, dropping the rope is a stnd for your self-respect. However, that is a decision you have to make for yourself.

Whatever you do, I will be here trying to support you. You know your W better than anyone. Just remember that she is not her normal self at this time and that is why you have to do abnormal things hoping to reach her.

All my prayers,
Sandi

[BigJohn]

Sandi,

Thank you for another terrific post. I really appreciate the time and thought that you always put into your posts but especially this one.

After you told me about OM's younger OW, I think your W will be more determined than ever to pursue him,b/c now it is more than just her fantansy "love" for OM, but it involves a competition to “win” this man from a woman who is younger than her, so she has a lot of ego at stake here. I’m really sorry to here about this younger woman b/c it makes “winning” important to your W. What both of us know, is that the OM probably has more than these two women on his string. When you described him to me, I figured that the only R’s he has is with women over the Internet.

This is the same conclusion I came to as well regarding my W's likely thought process. I may have mentioned before that the OM last had a real world R that supposedly lasted 4 yrs- apparently it was a live-in situation with a woman and two small children which ended 11/08 with OM breaking the woman's arm. OM told my W the OW "fell" after he pushed her; W bought the story hook/line/sinker. I've wondered on occasion whether my W might be some sort of "rebound" R for OM- not that it makes much difference right now.

1.In her mind, the M is over anyway, and she is moving on with a new chapter with OM.
2.If you tell her you aren’t sure if M will survive if she gets pregnant or STD…it is kind of like saying that you will take her back if she screws around a couple of times, but no more than that. That puts you in a disrespectful and unattractive position. Makes you look “needy”. I know you don’t mean to imply that you are giving your permission for her to have a PA as long as it’s just a few times and as long as she doesn’t get pregnant or STD, but it may sound that way to her ears.

Very good point- I agree. In hindsight, I don't need to start splitting hairs with her on the sex issue- she knows damn well how I feel about it.

3.I do not think anything you say is going to stop her now. Unless she has a spiritual awakening at the camp this week, I don’t believe any words from anyone will prevent her from meeting OM. She feels this is her “destiny”. She thinks this is her second chance at happiness.

I definitely agree with the idea of a R with OM being her "destiny"- she admitted this to me more or less early on in the EA. My W certainly seems to be doing everything she can in her power to make this R with OM a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I doubt there will be much if any spiritual awakening with her at camp. There is cell reception up there so I know she is continuing to get her daily "fix" by at least texting OM.

5.This younger OW has put an entirely new light and intensity on the “battle” for OM. It is very important to your W that she can win this competition b/c she is the older woman here and what better ego boost (in her opinion) could she have than to think she won OM from a younger contender.

I think I've mentioned before that OM's behavior has been erratic at times towards my W- he apparently vacillates between loving/not loving her, being nice/not nice, tells her he wants to marry her one minute then says he doesn't need or want her in his life, etc. The guy just sounds like a psycho. From what I can gather about OW she is single, much more accessible than my W and presents significantly less if any risk of resistance from family/friends than a R with my W.

When a woman is as mixed up as your W, she would choose OM over anyone…even her children. This is extremely hard to hear, but you have to keep reminding yourself that she isn’t the person you M and have loved all these years. She isn’t the “mother” she’s always been or she would not be able to do what she’s doing.

I recognize this and I think it's quite possible that my W could eventually abandon the kids with me in order to go live with OM. She can't take the kids to live out of state and OM is not going to give up everything to come live in our state. Plus OM has said before that he hated the kids of his ex-girlfriend whose arm he broke, so ultimately my kids are deal breakers (pardon the pun)for the OM.

It is something that nobody understands how a woman could do what she does. How could she give up everything for that sorry excuse for a man? It isn’t “him”, the person; as much as it is the fantasy she has built in her mind. That OM is nothing like her fantasy, but she has not seen it for herself. That is what you have to decide if you can risk with her going to see him. Will that get her eyes open to the truth? But now that I know about this younger OW, it makes things worse…as far as your W getting her eyes open. However, maybe the OM will dump your W and be ugly enough that it will shock her back into reality. I’m afraid that he will have sex with her, first, then dump her.

I'm not sure seeing OM in person is going to do anything but reinforce my W's feelings for him. I think that he will eventually dump her, it's more a question of "when" vs. "if" and how much sex and ego boosting he can get from my W before he does. That and seeing how much he can "ruin" my W for me- someone who is far better than him- before dumping her.

After thinking this over, I believe that you saying absolutely NOTHING about the trip, OM, a possible PA, her parents, the anniversary……would have a stronger influence. If she comes back from camp and mentions OM or the trip in any way, I believe if you just keep your mouth closed and don’t react in any way…she will notice that quicker.

Will do. So forget about the TM on the anniversary then as well?

Big John, unless she has a huge turn around at the Church this week, then I think if there was ever a time for you to drop the rope and go on about your life for her to “see” that you don’t care what she does anymore…then this is the time to do it. You are worried about detaching. You’re concerned she thinks you’ve given up on the M. All LBH’s who are not truly detached think this way! Sweetie, you are not detached. You have tried, but you’ve not made it.

Agreed, when I fall into that line of thinking it does show that I am not all the way there yet. But I am getting closer- my post from a couple days ago definitely was what I was feeling and coming from at the time.

I can read your fear in your post as it grows closer to the time for her to leave, and I believe she can see that fear in you. I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you to hide it!

I try to let it all out- the fear, apprehension- at the gym and posting here. So far I think I'm doing a pretty good job masking it from my W.

When a WAW thinks you no longer care what she does b/c you are going to live your life without her in it…then that gets her attention! You are afraid to believe that. You have been too afraid to do that b/c of your fear of losing her. I think you will be too afraid to do it now b/c you feel that you have to make some “last stand” for your M. Has anything you’ve done toward showing her your “stand for the M” worked yet? No, it hasn’t. I will not tell you that you MUST drop the rope or all is lost… b/c if she went on with the PA and things turned out badly, you would always believe it was due to dropping the rope instead of showing her that you still cared. To me, dropping the rope is a stnd for your self-respect.

Reading a post last night from a former LBH who dropped the rope on his former WAW testified to the truthfulness of what you say. In that former LBH's sitch, his WAW D'd him only to later come to the realization of the mess she made of her life and tried to get her H back. Only by then, he had moved on and had remarried.

It is true that life will go on for me if my W and I D. In that case,it will not be a bed of roses in the beginning for me, but in the end it will be me who will come out on top. I know I need to learn to successfully detach if I'm going to get through this sitch with my W. I need to for myself- for my self respect- and for my kid's sake.

Thanks again Sandi for all your prayers and support. It means a lot to me. Talk to you soon.

[sandi2]

I try to let it all out- the fear, apprehension- at the gym and posting here. So far I think I'm doing a pretty good job masking it from my W.

I'm glad you told me that. That is one of the purposes of this board, but I get concerned when I know one of the LBS are hurting so much. I'm a fixer at heart and even though I have learned that we can't fix these things for people.....it doesn't stop me from caring about what they are facing. When I see a person who has tried as hard as you and the WAS just doesn't open the eyes to see what they have.......but then I have to remember that "I" was the same way. I will tell you this much, I found myself again, so I believe it is possible for your W. I don't know at what point and I wished it would be when she comes back from camp. But, you are thinking very smart, and you will make it....with or without her. It will certainly be her great loss if she doesn't wise up!