Going straight forward...antlers 5th thread.

[antlers]

When I said it was my only option, I meant that I was becoming a better dad, a better partner, and a better man...all the way around...regardless of anything else.

Yes. I know what you meant. You are correct in the way you meant it. I was nudging you to ask yourself the question of "what if she REALLY is done"? What if she is much happier now without you around berating her? I don't buy what the others are telling you in that she is not happy. She may very well be quite happy. She may be so angry at you that she is going to continue to tell you exactly how she feels about you no matter what anybody thinks. That certainly doesn't mean she is unhappy. One can be unhappy with a particular situation on any given day and still leave it at work or whatever and be quite happy the rest of the day. .....


I do want you to know that you have done a fine job of turning around. I do believe you meant business. I do believe you now truly understand what you did and have deep sorrow. Good job on that front.

My belief is that you have shown complete remorse. You have shown her and shown her that you are sorry and have taken the blame for the way you treated her and that you understand her feelings and anger and disgust. That is all good and correct on your part....

HOWEVER.... She is NOW showing YOU disrespect. At some point you are going to have to earn her respect back by standing up to her way of talking or communicating to you. The key will be in how to stand your ground and still allow her to feel that you were wrong for the past. This isn't a matter of taking the bait, but in establishing a two way level of respect.

Chew on this for awhile. It is NOT WRONG for you to tell her that she is at some point no better to talk to you that way than you were to her. You may then have to stand your ground in a different way, such as cutting off communication until SHE gets your new message. If she shouldn't have to take you talking to her that way (and she shouldn't) YOU shouldn't have to take it from her either. (and YOU shouldn't) Deep down she knows this to be true,but now she is using this as a power play..

Food for thought. You can't "not respond" for forever... It may be the missing link to the actually really getting her respect back.

This will be a test of enormous magnitude for you to pass.

Good luck

Man, your post is loaded with insight! I'm giving this stuff a lot of thought, gucci! Thanks.

[antlers]

such as cutting off communication until SHE gets your new message.

I do agree with Gucci. In my sitch the only way to get the message across has been to just cut off the conversation when it gets disrespectful. I am done trying to rationalize or explain why I find H's behavior or communication abhorrent. Sometimes the behavior is subtle and manipulative and I let my actions speak so I don't waste too much energy. I tried to converse and rationalize why and how his communication doesn't work for me. No change until I just end the conversation.

I think with overt hostility, you do have an opportunity to say something to the effect of what Gucci mentioned...basically that the behavior is unacceptable when directed at her and/or you. I can almost guarantee she feels entitled to equal time of a**holic behavior.

Trying to fulfill that expectation means you get to be a punching bag and she still probably never comes back. And, those are moments of your life you'll never retrieve.

The whole tit for tat thing is a waste of time...doesn't work.

Rambling a bit here. While I have disagreed with Gucci before, overall, it has not been until I really stopped this placating BS that my life has begun to feel manageable and within my control.

It is a fine line. Sometimes, we need to discuss our communication (usually around kid issues), but overall, even then, my expressions lead to little change as long as I'm engaging. If I stood a chance of changing H, it would have happened long ago. I can only define what is acceptable to me and live by it. It is challenging.

When you detach, you also wont really care as much how she treats you as it is just really her problem.

Don't know if Gucci and I agree on this. I think it can go either way but I have found the preoccupation with how H treats me to really divert my attention from myself and my life. Maybe he'll be a d*ck forever, I honestly can't even care anymore. I can handle it. And, sooner or later, he will get that he's on a road to nowhere trying to reel me in...or not.

Life is too precious to let someone else's behavior dictate how you are going to feel. Onward.

Hey AAK. I'm glad you're here. I'm sure she feels entitled to treat me the way she does after all the years I treated her the way I did.

"Life is too precious to let someone else's behavior dictate how you are going to feel." - AAK

This is profound AAK, and it shows what a strong and intelligent woman you are! Thank You!

[aliveandkicking]

"Life is too precious to let someone else's behavior dictate how you are going to feel." - AAK

This is profound AAK, and it shows what a strong and intelligent woman you are! Thank You!

I could have told you this two weeks ago or even two years ago. I only "get it" now because when I reflect on what I have lost thus far, I feel in my bones that I am willing to give up no more.

Live life fully.

[CityGirl]

The work you have done on yourself and the insight you have gained as a man has been amazing.

There comes a time though when enough is enough with the verbal abuse and absolute rudeness we will tolerate from a WAS.

If she is angry at you that is her issue to own and work through. Or, she can stay angry and bitter forever. Either way its her choice. However, its high time she clearly understand you will no longer tolerate her lashing out at you.

There is a way to present this boundary to her in a loving and kind manner but IMO it must be done soon. Not only to show her that you arent her verbal punching bag but really, your children will pick up on this anger and that wont help a darn thing.

My H (not recently but early on in our situation) said some very ugly things to me. And for a long while I not only tolerated it but was foolish enough to validate it. Its all in the presentation. Eventually though I realized that all I was doing was validating terrible behavior which actually enabled him to continue doing it. I set my boundaries and when he tried to push them (which he did) I had to become more hardcore. I never once was ugly, nasty or unkind to him. I never raised my voice or called him names but I was *very* clear that *if* I chose to converse with him he was going to do so in a manner that showed respect and civility.

I am sorry my H was hurt and chose not to tell me. I am sorry my H was filled with guilt for his affair and lashed out at me but I refused to be treated like a second class citizen for his issues.

You want to talk? Lets talk. The subjects might be hard to talk about but if a conversation does take place there is no place for being ugly and showing zero respect.

I sound like a hard *ss, I know, but eventually you get saturated from the way a WAS talks to you. If you cant speak to me like an equal then dont speak to me at all. Its very simple.

[antlers]

"Life is too precious to let someone else's behavior dictate how you are going to feel." - AAK

This is profound AAK, and it shows what a strong and intelligent woman you are! Thank You!

I could have told you this two weeks ago or even two years ago. I only "get it" now because when I reflect on what I have lost thus far, I feel in my bones that I am willing to give up no more.

Live life fully.

Well, it takes time to become receptive to the wisdom that we are gaining here. As that time goes by, and healing starts to take place, we become able to assimilate the good things we are learning here into our lives.

[antlers]

The work you have done on yourself and the insight you have gained as a man has been amazing.

There comes a time though when enough is enough with the verbal abuse and absolute rudeness we will tolerate from a WAS.

If she is angry at you that is her issue to own and work through. Or, she can stay angry and bitter forever. Either way its her choice. However, its high time she clearly understand you will no longer tolerate her lashing out at you.

There is a way to present this boundary to her in a loving and kind manner but IMO it must be done soon. Not only to show her that you arent her verbal punching bag but really, your children will pick up on this anger and that wont help a darn thing.

My H (not recently but early on in our situation) said some very ugly things to me. And for a long while I not only tolerated it but was foolish enough to validate it. Its all in the presentation. Eventually though I realized that all I was doing was validating terrible behavior which actually enabled him to continue doing it. I set my boundaries and when he tried to push them (which he did) I had to become more hardcore. I never once was ugly, nasty or unkind to him. I never raised my voice or called him names but I was *very* clear that *if* I chose to converse with him he was going to do so in a manner that showed respect and civility.

I am sorry my H was hurt and chose not to tell me. I am sorry my H was filled with guilt for his affair and lashed out at me but I refused to be treated like a second class citizen for his issues.

You want to talk? Lets talk. The subjects might be hard to talk about but if a conversation does take place there is no place for being ugly and showing zero respect.

I sound like a hard *ss, I know, but eventually you get saturated from the way a WAS talks to you. If you cant speak to me like an equal then dont speak to me at all. Its very simple.

Hi CityGirl.

Sound wisdom, from the beginning of your post, to the end of it. And insightful too! I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say here. I'm there. Enough is enough. It's a fine line to present this boundry to her, especially from me and considering the way I've been in the past, in a compassionate manner...and at the same time, let her know that this disrespectful communication is unacceptable.
You gave me a lot of good info. and insight in this post...and I will definately use it. Thank You!

ps - I hope you're doin' OK...and thanks for the 'attaboy'!

[antlers]

She was hateful and rude at son's kickball game on Thursday evening. The kids were there, lots of people were there, and I let it go.

Later that evening, I sent her the following E-mail...

"Wife,
You have made it clear to me how you feel. I have listened, and agreed,
with how I treated you. Now, I'd like to let you know how I feel.

I've done a good job of turning around. I meant business! I truly
understand what I did, and I have deep sorrow.

I'm remorseful. I've shown you that I am sorry and have taken the blame
for the way I treated you and that I understand your feelings and anger and
disgust.

However, your way of talking and communicating to me is often
disrespectful. It is no better for you to talk to me this way than it was when
I was doing it to you. We both know that I was wrong in the past; and I can't
defend or make excuses about my past behavior. I'd like to establish a two way
level of respect.

If you shouldn't have had to take me talking to you that way (and you
shouldn't), then I shouldn't have to take it from you either (and I shouldn't).
I believe you know this to be true.

You've made it clear to me, as far as our future goes, that it's over and
you're done! I accept that. Acceptance is not agreement. I accept that it is
your choice. It is not the choice that I would have made.

Regardless, I care for you deeply, and I love our three children with every
ounce of life that is in me.

Sincerily,

Antlers"


I meant what I said, and I said what I felt. I tried to walk that line that I mentioned earlier...setting boundries, and at the same time...doing it with love and compassion. I felt better after I'd sent it. It's a change from how I've been so far.

[aliveandkicking]

Good for you.

[orangedog]

Excellent note.

[antlers]

Good for you.

Thanks AAK.