Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[BigJohn]

Sandi,

Don't think camp has helped my W much thus far. She has called the house three times this week around bedtime and I have picked up each time. Each time she has been short on words with me and stated that she simply called to tell the kids she loves them. Of course, she says nothing of the sort to me. Then the second comment she makes she asks if everything is OK- in a tone suggestive that she is harboring a little skepticism whether I can handle taking care of the kids for a week or not. Give me a break. She has gone to camp every year for years- every time went smoothly with me and the kids. My response to all three phone calls is the same every time: "everything is just fine honey, the kids and I are having a blast".

I don't know what her problem is- I guess it's her continuing her effort to try to look at me in a negative light any way she can to assuage her guilt and justify her EA. She was doing this nitpicking with me before she left for camp too.
Whatever. Just makes me more motivated to become a "hard target" by being even more openly self confident and cheery.... and detached.

Well she gets home tomorrow night. We'll see what kind of mood she's in then. I'll be sure to greet her with a big toothy grin.

Talk to you later.

[sandi2]

Hi Big John, I just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you today. How did your W act when she got home?

[BigJohn]

Hi Big John, I just wanted to let you know I was thinking about you today. How did your W act when she got home?

Thanks Sandi. I hope the break from the forums did you good. You were missed; glad you are back!

Well here's an update since we last corresponded: My W got home and immediately engaged the kids about her experience at camp. Barely acknowledged me when she came in. After trying to get her to tell me what she wanted me to cook for dinner with no response, I just left the room and went into my office. She comes in 20 minutes later teary eyed to tell me she is tired and wants to lay down and rest for awhile. She is tired from the drive home from camp. I say OK, I'll fix dinner and you wake up when you want. Two hours later she wakes up and has dinner, then goes back to bed.

I wake up the next day (Saturday), unload the car for her then wash/clean it inside and out for her. No thanks/acknowledgement. We go to a birthday party for the daughter of my BIL's fiance that afternoon and my W keeps her distance from me. BIL's fiance asks how things are going with me and W then tells me that my W told her a few weeks ago that she (W) and OM weren't talking and that OM doesn't want to see my W during the trip in August- something about him being "scared". I didn't make much of it- my W and OM are still texting each other as far as I know.

Later that day, my W and I are talking about her work and how somehow she needs to get more shifts in at her normally once a week job- we need the extra money now- and how we really can't afford this trip in August. I asked her what exactly are her plans as we are headed for some serious financial problems very soon. She replied that she was going to try very hard to get either more shifts or another job with a guaranteed 24 or 32 hr. a week shift after the trip in August. She also commented that she was "trying to work things out in my head" regarding our R. We talked a little about how fortunate we have been in our lives and I made a comment about counting your blessings to which she replied that she had.

Yesterday at church we participated in a post-camp celebration. My W put up a good show for everyone- I know she enjoyed camp, I just don't know whether it gave her any pause regarding what she is doing with OM. Last night, she made a big deal again about kissing the kids goodnight in front of me and telling them she loved them then turning to me to say a simple "good night".

Today she called to say she would be late for dinner- she is using a gift card from the PTA she got for volunteer work earlier this year to get her hair cut and colored. When I asked what color she was going to get she said "my natural hair color- something to cover up the gray hairs". I asked her what she was talking about- I haven't seen any gray hairs on her- and she said (adamantly)they were there "if you look real close."

This is ridiculous. The fact of the matter is that my W is a total babe! The hell with a few gray hairs. I'm damn close to falling off the DB wagon just for tonight- although maybe I already did yesterday- to tell her what a fox I think she is. Don't know if it will hurt or help things or not.

Talk to you later.

[sandi2]

Big John, I think you are going great and don't fall off the DB wagon just yet. I do feel that your W is on the phone with OM when she makes excuses to go to her bedroom to "lay down". I think she was teary eyed b/c OM sent her a TM that had her upset and she wanted to escape to her room and have privacy to talk to OM and try to soothe him over. But, you can't very well stand guard in the doorway to see that she "doesn't" talk to OM on the phone. OM's excuse of being "scared" is about as flimsy as any I've heard. And, BTW, if OM wanted to see your W, he would send her money to help finance the trip! I think you W is way out of line to think you should put forth one cent in financing a trip for her to have a PA! If that discussion comes up again, I really think you should be that plain about it. She doesn't have a problem talking to you about OM, so you need to call this what it is. What she is doing is wrong. She is being a hypocrite in her Church and she is being an adulteress. Those words sting but she needs to face it and stop the games.

[Jman]

Hey Big John,
I have been reading your thread and appreciate you taking the time to read and post on mine... What I was wondering is that did you read women's infidelity 2 about actually confronting the wife with proof gives the spouse a better chance to save the marriage versus the spouse who is looking at the wife as an emotional blanket? What are your thoughts on this? Or anyones thoughts on this...you see I have an email showing proof that my wife has cheated on me even though she has continually denied it...I feel to keep my self respect and that my current sit is not getting better to try something else...

[BigJohn]

Sandi,

That was kind of a silly ending to last nights post, didn't mean to be so melodramatic. My sitch is just such a soap opera sometimes it's ridiculous. Anyways, I'll pick up where I left off last night.

After my W got home from the salon, she immediately took a call on the home phone and walked into our master bedroom and closed the door. I was fixing dinner for the family at the time and naturally she said very little to me when she got in. I didn't comment on her hair. Shortly thereafter, I went into our garage to get some food out of a pantry. (The garage is adjacent to the mater bedroom.) While going in and out of the garage I heard parts of my W's phone conversation with (who I later learned was her best female friend). I didn't hear much but enough to realize that she was joking about her EA. It pissed me off. So when I went in to tell my W it was time for dinner I called her on it and said there was nothing funny about her EA- she was way out of bounds. She made a smart aleck comment and I told her I was quite capable of making some less than kind comments to her that would be guaranteed to wipe the smirk off her face. That nipped her attitude it in the bud. But I didn't stop there.

Recall when my D3 made the comment a while back "daddy (OM's name)"? Well I was feeling similar emotions last night. And, I have a couple of things that I haven't disclosed before to add to the context of my sitch: I am a long time professional investigator in the corporate world who works frequently with private investigators and attorneys. Some of my long time PI friends (who don't have business with my current employer)have taken a personal interest in my sitch and out of concern have offered assistance to me on their own personal time. I disclosed these people as part of my "support group" to my W within weeks of discovery of the EA and she understands the culture in which I work.

As one of my concerns early on was that my W was involved with a grifter- and OM may very well be- I accepted some assistance from these friends. Something that was discovered as a result is that OM apparently refers to his online girlfriends as "b*tches" and/or "Ho's". (BTW, I keep what is disclosed to me to myself- this time was an exception.) I didn't think my W knew this so I decided at the moment that maybe she would appreciate it given her joking about the EA. So I took her into the bedroom after dinner and told her. Surprisingly she wasn't shocked- her only interest was the source of this information. Naturally we had a conversation about this since this is completely contrary to the type of person she is in "real life". Is this part of the dynamic of their R or some sort of sicko role playing? I don't know and didn't get enough information out of my W about it. I did make a point of telling my W that 1) No one speaks about my W in those terms and 2)as my W, mother of our kids and a respected member of our church and community, she is certainly NOT a "b*tch" or a "Ho".

So, we had a R talk. I know Sandi, I can hear it now: Nooooo BJ, Noooooo! But the fact that my W is accepting of this type of verbal abuse from OM really concerned me. And so I heard from my W that because she was skeptical about "getting hurt again" by OM (like she did back when they broke up when she was 18), she broke it off with OM a couple weeks ago....before restarting things up with him again recently after he recontacted her. Next, I heard about how I don't love her unconditionally- like some people do (OM)- and that if I did, I'd in essence be what we (DBer's)would consider aggressively pursuing her and lavishing her with praises, compliments, etc.- while in the midst of the EA. Of course, I received no credit for sticking it out like I have been during the whole sitch. Next, I heard her repeat again how no one ever changes and how our two different personalities just can't coexist successfully within a MR, blah, blah blah. And then she told me how she had asked my BIL to have a conversation with me about a S with her and how much sense it would be to have ME move out of the family home given the sitch with our kids. (BTW, My BIL wouldn't DARE have this convo with me- and my W is a chickensh*t to even suggest it to him.) When I asked my W what she might be doing to "recruit" the OM to support her in getting a D from me in order for them to be together she denied doing anything of the sort.

After I had listened to my W, I told her that me being understanding of what she was going through in this sitch- and I can't relate to what she is going through- was one thing but that being used as a doormat by her was another. So we discussed respect and boundaries and agreed to have a separate convo about them. That part of the R talk went reasonably well- it was a discussion that needed to happen- before things de-evolved into my W getting emotional and stating how she just feels like she is always disappointing me, she always gives in to me, etc. and that "why try to work on our R since it just won't work". To which I replied in part: 1) I have never deliberately tried to make her feel like a let down, 2) I have always seen her as and wanted an equal M partner, 3) my expectation for our R is one that is both mature and where BOTH of us accept accountability, 4)our MR requires and deserves courage on the part of both of us to make it work and 5) If you don't try you are doomed to fail!

(BTW, My W told me that while at camp she had tried feeling optimistic about our R but that as soon as she got home last Friday she reverted back to her same feelings again. Don't know if I believe that or not as I don't think she missed a beat TM OM while at camp. So much for clearing her head- or recognizing that OM has got to go before we can try reconciling.)

So unfortunately I had a backslide the other night. If I hadn't heard what I did I probably would have been fine, but my W joking about the EA like this is some sort of silly high school R sitch really pissed me off. Can't say how much of a setback (or benefit) any of this may have had beyond shedding additional light on my W's R with OM.

If anything all of this crap just underscores to me more the value in detaching.

Well got to go. Talk to you later.

[sandi2]

To be completely honest with you, I can't see where there was much of a backset. If I had been you, I would not have been able to hold it back as long as you did! But, she is not being truthful about OM! Plus the idea of thinking her H should be "understanding" of her and another man???

I am so far from being a person who would take verbal abuse that I can’t imagine why your W would put up with that creep. I can understand her being like a different person with OM than her normal character b/c I did the same thing. But, I am wondering if she’s not really “seeing” the man he is today and if she is thinking of who he was in the past. I suppose my mind can’t accept a woman stooping to such low life, however, we read about it everyday. Does she really think you are buying that lie about her breaking up with OM a couple of weeks ago? Then she turns around and expects you to be understanding? Well, there is no using logic with her, that’s for sure.

You might want to see what I wrote on Orich’s thread (Divorced not Busted 2) in Newcomers, about unconditional love. It amazes me what some people brand as “unconditional" love. I don’t really see how a person with any self-respect could be in a MR where they would sit back while their spouse did some kind of ungodly or illegal actions and continue to love them (in the way we think of loving) in spite of what they do. Maybe I’m the one with a warped mind but somehow I feel that if your stitch was turned the other way around…your W would not be feeling so “unconditional” about her love for you!

[BigJohn]

I am so far from being a person who would take verbal abuse that I can’t imagine why your W would put up with that creep. I can understand her being like a different person with OM than her normal character b/c I did the same thing. But, I am wondering if she’s not really “seeing” the man he is today and if she is thinking of who he was in the past.

I also cannot relate to the verbal abuse and open disrespect. I guess if a WAW has low enough self esteem (for sure) AND is desperate to get her "fix" of OM AND is seeing OM as he was in the past (very likely)than I guess it's acceptable to her. I don't think it is an attempt by OM to get rid of my W- at least not yet. Whatever the reason it's my W's problem.

Does she really think you are buying that lie about her breaking up with OM a couple of weeks ago? Then she turns around and expects you to be understanding? Well, there is no using logic with her, that’s for sure.

No, and I don't know why she is even bothering telling people this story. Maybe it is her way of trying to blunt everyone's concern for her since the whole family is pissed off about her EA and what a complete scumbag OM is.

You might want to see what I wrote on Orich’s thread (Divorced not Busted 2) in Newcomers, about unconditional love. It amazes me what some people brand as “unconditional" love. I don’t really see how a person with any self-respect could be in a MR where they would sit back while their spouse did some kind of ungodly or illegal actions and continue to love them (in the way we think of loving) in spite of what they do. Maybe I’m the one with a warped mind but somehow I feel that if your stitch was turned the other way around…your W would not be feeling so “unconditional” about her love for you!

I'll check out that thread. BTW, it wasn't my intention in my post to imply that tolerating my W's crap was unconditional love- it's not. It's just when my W starts with the criticisms it pisses me off- I'd like a little damn credit for my efforts here! Especially since most H's would NOT be so patient! (Yes, I know, wishful thinking.)

Don't get me wrong here. I appreciate the concern for my self respect- it's an issue that has been raised before by several of my friends in the recent past. If I didn't think my W was not presently right psychologically and emotionally, I'm not sure I would be able to exercise the amount of patience with my W that I currently am. The fact is, my W is in the midst of a serious personal crisis. I don't like having to swallow my pride for the time being, but it is what it is. It's a casualty of fighting for my M and my family. I realize I have my limits. I don't presently know exactly what they are, but I will know it when I reach them. I really hope for my W's sake I don't, because it won't be good- I am not going to allow her to damage me like that. I have no intention of sacrificing myself to the point of losing my self respect. All the more reason to focus on detachment.

[BigJohn]

Hey Big John,
I have been reading your thread and appreciate you taking the time to read and post on mine... What I was wondering is that did you read women's infidelity 2 about actually confronting the wife with proof gives the spouse a better chance to save the marriage versus the spouse who is looking at the wife as an emotional blanket? What are your thoughts on this? Or anyones thoughts on this...you see I have an email showing proof that my wife has cheated on me even though she has continually denied it...I feel to keep my self respect and that my current sit is not getting better to try something else...

Jman,

It's been awhile since I read that book, I'd have to go back and re-read that part. In general, I believe in keeping things "real"- I like to be frank, open and honest. I don't have patience with someone who wants to p*ss on my leg and tell me it's raining. That is disrespectful IMHO. I don't like games. As you know from reading my posts, I confronted my W when I accidently found an email to the OM. For me, there was no other alternative. Given the circumstances, I don't know of any benefit to you NOT disclosing this information to your W. How are you going to reconcile with your W until you do?

I'd confront your W with the email and see how she reacts.

[Jman]

Hey Big John
thanks for responding and I appreciate your opinion.. I believe that I will bring it up..I am just asked her last night to go to counseling and she said she was not sure...Finally though I feel that I have dropped the rope..I was unemotional after...

BTW the page for that is 68 for the book not the pdf page...

Jman