Hello Kittyfish & Sandi2!

[BigJohn]

Okay, first off, it doesn't matter a single bit what anyone else thinks. Only what YOU think. You make yourself feel strong and confident in knowing that you are doing what's right. It's the exact same thing she's doing. She's doing what she feels is right.

I agree with you. My last post may not sound like it, but I am very independent and will fight. The problem is that I've got friends and family that are getting sick of this sh*t and are telling me to just D her a**. It's their hurt and anger that is getting to me- I know that I can't let it.

Like so many others have told you, you need to detach. The more you pushed for her to "see reason" the more she became set in her resolve to do her own thing. Think of her as a teenager (which is what they say people in MLC are like). When you tell a teenager they can't do something, they'll do everything they can to show you that they can even if deep down inside they know they can't. It's a process.

I'm way done reasoning with her. I am working hard to detach. She IS like a teenager- I'm beginning to wonder if things may have advanced to a MLC with her. Has anyone heard of an EA and/or a PA evolving into a MLC?

Like the article said that I posted last week. You have to let them come to grips with their own decisions.

So if you knew that she was leaving on this trip that could potentially bankrupt you, you should have set a boundary of not letting her get to your family's finances. Cut her off. Tell her if she wants to continue to spend, then she has to earn her own money.

I agree that she needs to experience the consequences of her actions- that is one of the reasons why I didn't forcibly
stop her from going on this trip even though we couldn't afford it. Another reason was that I didn't want to risk dragging the kids into a huge fight with her. Even if I did stop her from driving and not taking the kids with her, she would have likely gotten a cab to the airport to fly and see OM- she has $500 cash she got from MIL a while back as part of an inheritance. I argued we needed that money to help cover bills and we would get it back for her later but obviously she refused. And I did not have the money or friend/family support to watch the kids while she was gone. Aside from the trip, I have clamped down on the rest of her spending.

Better yet, since she crossed your boundary of her not seeing the OM, I would pack her bags where she can find them waiting for her when she gets back.

I with you a 100% on that! I would love to do that! Here is the problem: 1. Neither of us has the money to get her an apartment, 2. None of her friends or family members want her a** at their place (I know because I've asked.) and 3. I can't physically force her out of the house as we are co-owners. She refuses to voluntarily move out on her own- the excuse is "I'm not going anywhere without the kids". So that leaves us with in-house separation for now. Somehow I don't think making her sleep on the living room sofa when she returns is going to make much if any impression on her.

There are times when you take the Nice Guy approach, then there are times when you take the hardline. Like DB says, do what works. While they're away, write out what worked and what hasn't. Come up with a plan and execute.

Agreed. I am open to any suggestions on hardline boundaries I can impose with my W while on a shoestring budget.

Stuck, I appreciate the feedback. Thank You.

[sandi2]

Hi Friend, I've been thinking about ya. You probably feel that if you can make it through the next couple of weeks, then you can make it through most anything. However, I have learned that life always has something a little bit harder to throw at us, so what is happening now usually is preparing us to deal with things in the future. Okay, with that little devotional behind us......

Yet, I continue to be reminded by family members that my W's free will trumps my obligation to protect her.

We have discussed how MLC is almost like a disease, and how we would treat our spouse if they were sick, etc. However, we know she does not have a disease. Anyway, I think your family wants you to stand up for yourself. What do you want to do? As a woman who came very close to walking out, I would say that your W needs to have a slap of reality. She needs to see something thaT SHE WOULD "MISS" IN HER LIFE. i AM NOT SURE THAT HAS REALLY HIT HER YET...THAT YOU WOULD NOT BE AROUND TO BE "HER BEST FRIEND". sHE NEEDS TO KNOW THAT SHE HAS CROSSED THE LINE AND YOU WILL NOT CONTINUE TO ACCEPT A m THAT ALLOWS ADULTRY. yOU KNOW, bj, THAT IS WHAT YOU WILL BE DOING IF YOU (sorry, I did not realize I was typing in caps)....what do you think her next move will be? Do you think she plans to come home and talk to you about her love affair and that you will be fine & dandy with everything? How brazen is that? But, she talked about it "before" she left! I guess what I'm saying is that you have done all that you could do and she still chose to disrespect you, God, the Church, family on & on.....and in her mind she got away with it! There has been no consequences! Don't you think it is time that she sees the consequences of her decisions? Has she had to suffer anything b/c of having an A with OM? Has she had to do without anything since she says that the two of you are S? She continues to go to Church camp and go about life as if nothing is different. Nobody is making her accountable.

Well, I have to go b/c somebody ghas come in. Talk to you later.

[MrBond]

Well she's set on talking with the OM. So make sure she doesn't talk about him in front of the kids. She shouldn't have taken the kids with her in the first place. That should be the first boundary.

I would also make sure that anything associated with the OM be put on her dime. Internet charges, phone, etc.

detach and play with your kids. be the dad that they need because they obviously don't have a mom that they need right now.

You are going to have to let the stuff with the OM burn itself out. Don't think about it. No R talks. No money talks. Pay the bills you need to. If she won't contribute, then she has no business being in the house even if she is the co-owner.

I would still pack her things up and let her figure out what she is going to do. Heck she can go and move with the OM which is what she wanted. How dare she say that she won't "leave without the kids". That's what's a kicker about our WAWs and the kids. They go and have A's and make everything about them, and insist on having the kids with them as if they are the greatest role models.

Puh-leaze.

I think you really need to do that. Maybe there's a YWCA that will put her up for cheap. She's not your problem any more. She's the OM's problem. I think if you start showing how you aren't going to tolerate her behavior any more (in a calm fashion) she'll start respecting you more.

That's what it comes down to. Respect. She's giving the OM more respect than she is you. How does that feel? Pretty crappy doesn't it? How do you get respect back? Put your foot down.

[BigJohn]

Stuck/Sandi,

Thank you both for your posts tonight. I just had an unexpected visit from my BIL and his fiance tonight- they came over to check in on me and of course we talked quite a bit about my W and our sitch.

They told me that from what they understand my W is really testing everyone's patience. She is telling everyone how everyday she is spending time with her best (girlfriend) when in fact everyone knows she has been with OM the entire time. My kids have been over at my in-laws with my W coming home around midnight the last few days. Apparently my W is now pressuring my SILs to take my kids over to their houses this week for back to back sleepovers to spend more time with her "best friend". My SILs are apparently very pissed off and are not cooperating.

The last night or two my W apparently came home at my in-laws at around 10:00 p.m. and went straight to bed. On one of those nights, my BIL here got woken up by a TM from my W at 1:00 a.m. saying "(OM) says Hi!" My BIL TM'd back asking what the hell was she doing and she TM'd back "(OM) just thought it would be really funny." My BIL TM'd back asking where the kids were and my W responded they were at my in-laws. My BIL then TM'd my MIL who in turn called him a jerk, saying she saw my W go to bed at her place around 10:00. Apparently my W had "gone to bed" then snuck out of the house later on to be back with OM for the night.

My BIL TM'd my W back asking what the hell she was doing and she responded "(OM) and I are just talking. I'm a married woman, give me a little credit."

Folks, I'm thinking my W's EA and now PA has morphed into some sort of MLC. I'm also thinking that OM is actively trying get my W to burn all bridges with everyone and isolate her to get complete control over her. This assh*le is a complete psycho predator. It's getting very difficult to stand down and not do anything- I know my W has to pull out of this herself and crash hard but she has lost her mind. Just wondering if I shouldn't try to fly out, get the car and the kids and bring them back- although they are safe with my in-laws. I'm thinking that if I did retrieve the car and kids my W would probably stay behind- she is acting like someone on a massive cocaine binge. Bringing the kids back is her biggest incentive to come home right now. And yes, I'll be trying to call the bank and credit card companies tomorrow in between a very busy schedule at work.

I'm in uncharted waters here and would appreciate any feedback.

[sandi2]

Big John, my nature would be to do exactly as you have suggested. However, you might want to get some advice from some others who have been in your shoes, like Stuck, Puppy, Coach and several. It appears to me that some kind of move on your part is needed, but that is just "me" and not necessarily DBing. I certainly agree with the financial protection of your accounts and credit cards. It doesn't seem right to me that she takes advantage of living under the same roof as you while continuing her PA. That causes you to support her while she has an A. If you could afford to talk to one of the DB coaches here, it would be good counseling. I don't want to steer you wrong. My biggest problem is not moving into action. But I like the ideal of you going to get your children and your car and leaving her to get back home the best way she can. I think that makes a very strong statement that you are protecting your children from her adulterous lifestyle and you do not intend to enable it. Personally I think it is time for daddy to step in and get his kids and take them home. I think that has a wallop of a message even if you don't see her or say one word to her. You would be the "Knight on the white horse" but it will be for your kids...not her!

I would think the first thing she needs to discover when she returns home is that she cannot suport herself (which she already knows, but you've been doing it for her). Time for tough love! She has already run into the arms of OM in spite of all you've warned her, so what do you have to lose? You've tried to protect her from OM by telling her what sort of man he is and she won't listen, so now she seems to need a reality shock. Besides, I am wondering if she is thinking you are going to take anything she dishes out just as long as she won't leave you. But she won't respect you BJ, and I believe it's important to have that. This is a critical time to make the right decisions.

[BigJohn]

Big John, my nature would be to do exactly as you have suggested. However, you might want to get some advice from some others who have been in your shoes, like Stuck, Puppy, Coach and several. It appears to me that some kind of move on your part is needed, but that is just "me" and not necessarily DBing. I certainly agree with the financial protection of your accounts and credit cards. It doesn't seem right to me that she takes advantage of living under the same roof as you while continuing her PA. That causes you to support her while she has an A. If you could afford to talk to one of the DB coaches here, it would be good counseling. I don't want to steer you wrong. My biggest problem is not moving into action. But I like the ideal of you going to get your children and your car and leaving her to get back home the best way she can. I think that makes a very strong statement that you are protecting your children from her adulterous lifestyle and you do not intend to enable it. Personally I think it is time for daddy to step in and get his kids and take them home. I think that has a wallop of a message even if you don't see her or say one word to her. You would be the "Knight on the white horse" but it will be for your kids...not her!

I would think the first thing she needs to discover when she returns home is that she cannot suport herself (which she already knows, but you've been doing it for her). Time for tough love! She has already run into the arms of OM in spite of all you've warned her, so what do you have to lose? You've tried to protect her from OM by telling her what sort of man he is and she won't listen, so now she seems to need a reality shock. Besides, I am wondering if she is thinking you are going to take anything she dishes out just as long as she won't leave you. But she won't respect you BJ, and I believe it's important to have that. This is a critical time to make the right decisions.

Sandi, I see you are up and already posting. It's just after 4:00 a.m. here in Cali- I couldn't sleep. I'm starting to lean towards getting my kids and the car and bringing them home. My W's judgment appears seriously impaired right now from what information I am getting out of my in-laws. I have no idea how my W is going to emotionally handle leaving OM after this binge or how it might affect her ability to drive. I'm going to guess that OM is probably NOT going to dump her after this visit- he'll use my W up as much as he can and try to string her along until her next visit- probably in December. Still, I presume she will be dealing with some sort of depression issues on the way home.

Leaving my W high and dry and alone is a risky move- in her condition, she could probably easily transition over to living with OM and abandoning our family altogether. And we need her contributing to the household income right now too- she is significantly underemployed but does have two small jobs which account for a couple days of work every other week. Not much, but every little bit helps. At the same time, I agree with you that making a move like this would make a statement to her.

I'll try to sleep on it some more. Thanks Sandi

[MrBond]

Go and get your kids. They are YOUR kids not just hers. YOU know they are not in a good environment. Go and protect them.

Let your W fall on her own. That is HER decision.

[sandi2]

Still, I presume she will be dealing with some sort of depression issues on the way home.

Well, that depends on several things. If she thought OM was going to jump at wanting to get M right off the bat, then she may be disappointed at his reaction (unless he's convinced her that he's going to as soon as she gets a D, but that it will take time for all of that). If she's the type that can stay "high" on her A by fantasizing, then she'll probably be okay, but if she needs more than a fantasy, then she may be depressed. I think you are correct about her being able to leave her entire family to be with the OM. One reason is b/c she sees herself a being as if she's single again. It probably makes her feel younger, also. What she said to your BIL was a joke! She knows what lines to pull out when necessary, doesn't she?
BJ, you said she only worked every other week for a couple of days. Please don't be offended by this, but are you sure your family couldn't make it without her income? If not, then she must have a high paying part-time job! I just think it is sad that people feel as if they are "forced" to stay together due to the economy. I still belive that she should have to foot the bill for her cell phone and anything else that enables her A.

I understand that you are very concerned about the welfare of your W, but in times like this, we have to put our children first. I know you are thinking of them all and that you love your family very much. It's so sad that your W does not see what she has.

[BigJohn]

Go and get your kids. They are YOUR kids not just hers. YOU know they are not in a good environment. Go and protect them.

Let your W fall on her own. That is HER decision.

Stuck/Sandi,

Thank you for your concern and your posts. I started planning right after my last post. I am leaving first thing tomorrow to get my kids. I will arrive unannounced but well prepared. I made it very clear to my W early on in the sitch that it is one thing for me to endure and be patient with the pain she is bringing me with her EA, but our kids are sacred. I will not tolerate behavior from her that hurts them. She and our MR are expendable where the kids are concerned, as am I.

I am going to my in-laws tomorrow as a father first, then a husband. I plan on packing up the car and the kids and driving home. It will definitely be interesting. I suppose my W may get enough sense knocked into her that she may wish to join us. If she does, I will be tempted to put conditions on returning home with us. But I suspect that ultimately she will choose to stay as she is too far gone now- it'll be like trying to pull an addict away from a pile of cocaine. Plus 14 hours in the car with me on the drive home- I don't see it happening.

I may check back in before I leave. Thanks again.

[MrBond]

DO NOT have her come home with you. She needs to get this out of her system. Let her deal with her own consequences. Concentrate on the kids.

If she does go home with you she will blame you for ruining her time alone. All you are doing is giving her what she's been asking for all this time.