We're reading SSM, slowly, together. I suggested we start with the part for the HD partner, just so she knows that there are things I must do to make it better, and that I am doing them, before we look at what she must do.
But she is not like the women in this book. She used to love sex, had lots of it. Now she doesn't, not often. She doesn't like that it is so important to me. She says she feels suffocated. She likes it to be just fun and not serious or about being in a relationship. She used to have sex with people she didn't like. She doesn't like talking about feelings. "Don't call it making love. It's f*cking."
I'm the one who does all the talking - but I've increasingly learned to say less, because talking has never made it better. We have less sex now than ever.
It used to be different. She used to love me and love to have sex with me - but that was when I was still with someone else and shouldn't have been there at all. So I've got my comeuppance.
I don't know how to do these forums, but I'll work out how you put all those coded bits at the bottom, it goes something like Me 47, W 29 (but we're not M), Together for 3 yrs and 9 months publicly, and 1 yr before that. D2 1/2, D 4mnths SSM recovery began: 8/2009
Hi. Sorry your post hasn't generated any discussion yet. Sometimes situations are sort of baffling and people don't know what to say.
You gave a quote from your partner: "Don't call it making love. It's f*cking."
Is she referring to her past experiences only? Or is she also referring to her current situation with you?
I hope it's the former (her past, not you). If she is also referring to her situation with you ... wow. That's a body blow. Potentially lethal. I'm hoping I'm misunderstanding.
I'm not going to say anything else until you give some clarification on that.
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
Thanks Gary, Yes, she is referring to our current situation.
Please don't misunderstand - she does love me. As a domestic couple we're brilliant, and hugs and holding hands are all fine and plentiful. We can be so close, but when it comes to sex it just doesn't work for her.
Her issue seems to be a discontinuity between love and sex.
After three years of rowing she has finally understood that my need for sex is closely connected with our relationship. But understanding that and being able to do anything about it are different things. It seems to be because I feel this way that it's a problem.
So you and your wife have two daughters, right? 2 1/2 years and 4 months? Kids really change the husband/wife dynamics. Not to mention, marriage really changes couple dynamics.
Affairs are free from responsibilities. That's part of the allure: all the baggage that goes with being married gets thrown out the window. The affair is about passion without responsibility. Passion without all the other stuff that goes with living with someone and building a life together. Responsibility-free passion can be very attractive.
Some people sort of idealize marriage. Especially after kids enter the picture. They want family life to be wholesome and safe. And in their minds, SEX doesn't fit into this picture very comfortably.
This is particularly problematic for people like my own wife who consider sex to be dirty. She's not a prude. But she identifies sex with decadence ... and that has little place in family life. We'll go out on date night. We'll hold hands. We'll kiss. We'll do everything that indicates we're very close. But when we get home ... my wife falls asleep. She has almost no interest in sex. Because in her own words, it makes her feel creepy--especially when our daughter is sleeping only one room away.
Marriage and children can really dampen the passion in a marriage ... That's not terribly profound. I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. But people respond to family life in different ways.
It sounds like you're taking good actions. Reading SSM together is an excellent step. It's very encouraging that your wife is willing to do that. Very encouraging. Another good book is PASSIONATE MARRIAGE by David Schnarch.
me: 50 w (waw): 45 daughter: 9 m: 16 t: 19 bomb: 9/26/08 status: physical separation for 7 weeks, then work-in-progress R
OK kunstler, after accidentally posting the wrong message to you, I have moved that message over to the correct thread, and now here's my message intended for you...
You said: "It used to be different. She used to love me and love to have sex with me - but that was when I was still with someone else and shouldn't have been there at all. So I've got my comeuppance."
Its not really comeuppance. What it is is that, when affair partners try to become true partners, they quickly realize that they didn't actually know each other that well. There is a false sense of intimacy that happens during an affair. This is why most affairs burn themselves out at the 2 year mark at the longest. And this is also why affair parterns who then become "out in the open" life partners rarely make it in the long term. There are some statistics out there which would suggest that affair marriages only have about a 20% chance of survival.
So you are living out that statistic, and although that sounds maybe cold, I think that you will benefit from realizing that you are climbing and uphill battle. This way, you can begin to learn what you specifcially need to learn, which may be much different than what other couples who did not start out as affair partners need to learn.
Seems first of all, you need to admit to yourself and accept that you didn't really "know" your wife in reality, you only knew her through the lens of your fantasy and affair. Once you can just admit this to yourself, then you can begin the process of truly knowing her as she is, not as you thought she was from the affair. Getting to know her truly will then give you the knowledge you need to have in order to know how to deal with the current lack of sex.
Seems also that maybe you need to do some healing from whatever happened that caused the affair and then whatever reasons you two "came out" in the open. If there was a messy break up or divorce on your side or her side or both, in order for you two to be together, then this again is some built in baggage you really need to deal with completely. If you - for instance - just both left other long term partners or spouses and then immediatley got together expecting it to be seemless, then you are now realizing the backlash, and that there is no way it would be seemless.
When I was married before, I had affairs. However, luckily for me, I never really "fell" for any of my affair partners. I feel very fortunate for that, because if I had fallen in "love" with any of them and if I had pursued a divorce to be with them, I can see very clearly now that it never would have worked out. The people I had affairs with were NOT people I would want to have a long term relationship with, which is evident to me now very painfully. I feel very blessed that I didn't fall into that mindset, because it would have been disastrous. No matter how well I felt I "knew" any of my affair partners, I actually didn't know them in the least. All I really knew was that they were playing a part in a fantasy I was having, and that none of their true selves were ever really there for me to know. The same was true for me. None of them really knew me either, they only knew the amount of me that was set aside for this wacky fantasy we were involved in. The "real" me was something that doesn't get revealed to someone in that situation, and never will.
None of that is really relevant to you necessarily, but I hope it helps give you insight into the reality you are dealing with: affair partners rarely make good spouses.
Thanks Gary and Dance Queen, what a lovely name, I remember Kylie at the Olympic Games closing event singing Abba's Dancing Queen. It was astonishingly perfect. Should I spill the whole story now? I was in a long relationship (never married - she was not the marrying kind, her parents were married and split up,she did not value the convention). 18 years. We have one son, he's 12 now. Our sex life was rubbish because I was not interested in her. She confronted me about a few times but never took it further. So, I know this girl who I like, and one day she takes me back to her house, and we kiss, then I leave and go home. And that changes everything. I realise I have been half-dead for years, I have no idea that anyone would be interested in me,and I am not going miss this chance to change things. I'm tired now, I'll continue tomorrow.
So I start sorting myself out and start trying to build bridges with my partner, yet my heart is filled with thoughts of this, erm, OW (is there a glossary somewhere so I can find out quickly what all these abbreviations are?).
A month passes, the affair begins.
She is amazing and difficult (that's what you want from an affair, no?). She is very clear and open about her sex life - she likes f*cking and she has a lot of sex with a lot of people. She says she can f*ck anyone she wants, but she wants to f*ck me.
But, also, and this is the reason for everything, she likes so many of the things that I like, the places we go, the music we listen to, the books we read, the things we like about people, all those things that make you compatible. She's 18 years younger than me (which of course makes me feel good in a very shallow way), but somehow our cultural references coincide.
So I decide to fall in love with her, because life is short and you only get one ticket. And, surprisingly, she falls in love with me.
Hmmm...well kunstler, I have waited for the rest of your story before responding, and you haven't been back for over a week, so I'm just gonna go ahead and respond now....
There are so many things "wrong" with your affair, which are red flags in any relationship. Even if you had met this woman while you were single, I would say the same thing: the age difference and the fact that she says "she can f*ck anyone she wants, but she wants to f*ck" you are actually both red flags. I know you have interpreted them to be assets to her, and reasons why you were interested in her to begin with. But these two things actually spell disaster for you.
If you are still around, I'd be happy to continue this discussion to see if there is any way to help your situation.
Dance Queen How, exactly, is what you say supposed to be useful to me? You are very judgemental. You are telling me that my life is a disaster. Thanks a bunch.
