Just be careful. Yes, it's time to get things out on the table but you sound like you're still angry. If she walks into a counseling session and is hit with a big list, she might feel like she's walking into an ambush. Listen, care, feel.
"My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground upon which I stand." Thich Nhat Hanh
I'm gonna throw down in agreement with Coach and Dia on this one.
She wants to come to YOUR counseling session? Fine. Then it's about YOUR agenda. I wonder if you have EVER gotten to run through that whole list of hurts without being constantly interrupted and shut down. If you have a counselor who will have your back on this .... I think it's time. Yes, the list is about your emotions, but her involvement emerges quite clearly.
Ditto, ditto, and ditto.
Thinker, I have struggled of late with the moving out of the first pahse of DB'ing - which is really just the LRT. Once the WAS has slowed down, then it is time to work on rebuilding the R. Slowly, but it has to happen.
IMHO, this area of your emotions is a BIG deal for YOU (and would be for me as well). She has input, to an extent and to the extent you want to consider her input. But she cannot deny you those emotions or force you to feel otherwise. This is an area where you have to put your foot down and, by God, if she doesn't like, who cares?
This isn't about HER. It's about YOU. She's either going to get with the program or not. In either case, you have to look out for YOU.
Never posted to you before, but following... I think I know where you're at with feeling like you don't want to be around her. For me, it is because it causes too much pain, because I have expectations. Staying away is a defense mechanism to avoid the pain. I'm not sure how it helps things or if it's just the beginning of detachment. I think in the end you've got to feel good about yourself and how you have handled this toughest of situations.
I will throw in the caveat here (as it applies to your whole sitch, not just today) that it is really hard to hear someone who is yelling. No matter how justified their anger is.
If you will allow me to personalize a bit for a moment.... earlier in our marriage, my husband had a bit of a temper. He was never "heard" in his FOO, and so feeling "not heard" (respected, understood, fitb) in our marriage went straight to those tangled pathways he grew up with. Hence, yelling and some throwing and minor breaking on occasion. He never ever hit me, or threw anything *at* me, or threatened to, nor did I ever feel (rationally) in danger of it. But .... it absolutely terrified me. It's like it tripped a switch in my head that made me instinctively want to shut up, agree, go along, do whatever it took to soothe him. (I imagine, in a *very* small way, what abused women feel.) I cannot even tell you how much that pissed me off; that I felt the need to "lessen" myself to "protect" myself in relation to my husband.
Absolutely none of this may be relevent to your situation. Mrs. T may be leveraging your anger as deflection from her own issues. Who knows?
It's just something to think about. From a woman's perspective, you guys are (usually) bigger and stronger. You (general you, not Thinker per se) vent your rage *knowing* and in control of where your intentions and limits are, with regard to physical harm. Women can't know that in the same way, not really really.
(Not meaning that it's unrecoverable, at all. I think you handled the aftermath honorably. But you still sound full of anger, and I just wanted to give you a friendly nudge of caution about where you allow it to take you.)
((((Thinker))))
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Actually she has been quite open and honest about how she feels, what she feels, and why she feels it...
You just aren't listening and don't seem to want to believe what she is telling you. It seems very clear to me what she is saying, has been saying and will continue to say...
You ARE NOT listening.. She is communicating LOUD AND CLEAR..
Let me paraphrase what I believe she is saying to you....
"I don't love you. I don't want to try to love you. I don't want to try to love you even if you say love is a decision. I doon't feel love for you. I don't want to try and feel love for you. I don't want to try to get it back".......
You are NOT listening. She couldn't be more clear.
Your solution is to LET HER GO... LET HER GO..
NOTHING else is going to work. NOTHING....
She is feeling nothing but PRESSURE from you. I'm not even living with you and I CAN FEEL it from you. PRESSURE DOES NOT WORK. GET THE PRESSURE OFF...
The way you do that is LET HER GO...
You are making this FAR more complicated than it is...
Give her what she wants. You are destroying yourself with this hanging in there method that is NOT WORKING...
You are going backwards. You should be going FORWARD....
Quit analyzing her and let her go. She is making it clear. You just don't want to hear or believe what she says. That means you are NOT listening to her.
I'll second what Kett said about anger, esp. if Mrs. Thinker had a father who yelled or got angry. Even if her father wasn't abusive, per se, an angry man might throw her straight back to 'scared little girl' in a hurry.
Note: I am not telling you not to FEEL anger, nor am I telling you your anger isn't valid or justified (it is both) - I'm just seconding the caution about how the anger gets expressed.
The trouble with having an open mind is that people put things in it.
My sitch - Divorce Busted! http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1804137#Post1804137
I've told her she is free to go. She can leave at any time. (But I am not going to help her move etc)
The conversations go like this...
Her: (reusing your paraphrasing from above) "I don't love you. I don't want to try to love you. I don't want to try to love you even if you say love is a decision. I doon't feel love for you. I don't want to try and feel love for you. I don't want to try to get it back".......
Me: OK...then leave.
Her: You're trying to throw me out! I can't leave. We have children, we have...
Me: OK...then stay.
Her: This is horrible. I can't be happy. I've never been happy. How can you want to live like this? Are you happy in this marriage?
Me: No. I'm unhappy. I think this marriage we have right now is horrible.
Her: You keep thinking that it can be fixed. It can never be fixed. There is no foundation for a R...
Me: OK
----
Retro is a great program, but in my sitch, it messed me up a bit. It is designed to bring people together, and for me it did just that - ripped me out of detachment. She avoided the exercises, didn't follow the instructions, stayed detached and aloof, and the net result is that every exercise was a painful effort in self control and anger management.
So I'm angry - just plain fed up. And I've been avoiding her for 4 days (since Retro ended). I don't want to talk to her about anything. and now she is going with me to a C session that she demanded that I schedule, because she wants to talk about my anger.
So what does "Let Her Go" mean?
Last edited by Thinker; 10/15/0908:27 PM.
Me 42, W 39, S8, S6, S2 M 11y, A & ILYBNILWY 11/08 Walking away from a bad situation.
This may be cold comfort, but at the dead level *least*, if you can remove your natural defensiveness from the equation, all of these interactions are a fertile laboratory for learning more about *you*. Hell, you can get too much of anything, but personally, it doesn't sound like wasted time if you approach it from that mindset.
OTOH, man, if *you* don't want to go, don't go.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Letting go... I doubt that many of us know what that really means, otherwise maybe we wouldn't be in this forum. I say this with all due respect to those who are here offering their own experiences and suppport even though their sitches are working out.
Maybe it's when we can get to a point when it's not about us, what we want and our own pain. When we can see our spouse's perspective as much as, if not more than our own. When we can be free to live and enjoy the limited time we have without the fear anymore.
I don't think things like this happen by chance. We are here for a reason. We're here to grow for the better. I think we are. But it's a slow process. Maybe it's slow because we need to learn to become consistent, otherwise our changes will not stick. Faith and patience Thinker. It's a long road.
Although it's your choice in the end, remember what your goals were when you started this journey. I assume it was to fight for your wife, marriage and family.
