Going straight forward...antlers 5th thread.

[antlers]

I understand antlers. This whole process takes a very heavy toll on one's self-confidence.

"Learned Optimism" is a great book. Coach actually recommended it to me. It teaches you how to change your perspective and attitude from being pessimistic to optimistic. It also explains how people become depressed - essentailly it is the product of "learned helplessness."

I think the quicker you realize there are other fish in the sea (and I'm not saying you have to hop back in the saddle before you're ready), the sooner you will be able to let go of your W.

It feels good to be wanted and popular. Get out there and find that. It IS there for the taking.

Agreed, and it has.

Sounds like a good and helpful read.

I don't doubt that GIMA, it's just that...it's hard to choke it down that 'this' is the woman I married and she really has and is doing the stuff that she has/is! I've been married for a long time, and I've been out of the game for a long time. I know there are other fish in the sea...I just wanted her. So, finding somebody else helps you to let go of your spouse?

I'm sure it feels good, it's just hard to get out there and find it, even if it is there for the taking. Memories, feelings, emotions (especially negative and painful ones), regret, remorse, etc....they are hard to deal with and get over.

[futureunknown]

I've done a bunch of work on myself since last December, and everybody that has anything to do with me appreciates that work...except her.

Hi Antlers-

She will be the absolute last one to accept your changes, because she was the one who bore the brunt of your old ways.

I don't want to give you false hope. It sounds like you've resigned yourself to the reality that you're getting a D, and I think that's exactly where you need to be. However, realize that in my situation my W also completely ignored my changes for a long long time, and she was pushing the legal stuff too. Was so frustrating for me, because I KNEW my changes were real, but she just ignored them, and kept telling me the same things (we're all wrong for each other, I don't feel anything for you, go find someone else, etc).

Even just last week, when the notion of reconciling started to be in the air, she STILL was saying those things, although finally I could tell even she didn't believe them any more. It's like she'd been clinging to those things to keep her strong, and even as her walls were coming down, she was still weakly throwing them out there. Like at the end of "When Harry Met Sally" when Sally said crying "That's just like you Harry, you say things like that and you make it impossible for me to hate you, and I hate you Harry, I hate you..." then she finally gave up her anger and they embraced and kissed.

For the first time, my W today said she could see I'm different now, and that she likes who I am, but she needs time to make sure the changes stick.

Even if you choose to hang in and wait, you need to get the attention of some other women. That will do wonders for your self confidence. You don't have to do any more than you're comfortable with, but just talking and being friendly is harmless, and if they reciprocate, it does feel good, and makes you realize your life isn't over. I agree with GIMA's whole list.

If you're M was as bad as you say it was, you need to just let time pass. If your W wants to pursue the D, try to treat the legal stuff as just some annoying tedious thing you have to do. It really isn't as connected to the emotional situation as you think. Many people reconcile right before signing the final D papers, and many reconcile afterwards.

[givingitmyall]

I don't doubt that GIMA, it's just that...it's hard to choke it down that 'this' is the woman I married and she really has and is doing the stuff that she has/is!

She ISN'T. And you aren't the man she M'd either. You both change, but she has changed in a much different way apparently.

I've been married for a long time, and I've been out of the game for a long time.

You aren't DEAD, man. You have a lot to offer.

So, finding somebody else helps you to let go of your spouse?

Sorry if I gave you the wrong idea. I think finding YOURSELF will allow you to get past where you are right now. When you have gotten yourself better mentally, emotionally, then you will be "over" your W. B/c you will understand that you may want your W, but you don't NEED her. Flirting and all those other things to boost your self confidence are designed to help you understand how strong you are and how you are both capable and deserving of a great R.

I'm sure it feels good, it's just hard to get out there and find it, even if it is there for the taking. Memories, feelings, emotions (especially negative and painful ones), regret, remorse, etc....they are hard to deal with and get over.

Water under the bridge. You cannot change the past. Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past. So, forgive yourself.

[antlers]

I've done a bunch of work on myself since last December, and everybody that has anything to do with me appreciates that work...except her.

Hi Antlers-

She will be the absolute last one to accept your changes, because she was the one who bore the brunt of your old ways.

I don't want to give you false hope. It sounds like you've resigned yourself to the reality that you're getting a D, and I think that's exactly where you need to be. However, realize that in my situation my W also completely ignored my changes for a long long time, and she was pushing the legal stuff too. Was so frustrating for me, because I KNEW my changes were real, but she just ignored them, and kept telling me the same things (we're all wrong for each other, I don't feel anything for you, go find someone else, etc).

Even just last week, when the notion of reconciling started to be in the air, she STILL was saying those things, although finally I could tell even she didn't believe them any more. It's like she'd been clinging to those things to keep her strong, and even as her walls were coming down, she was still weakly throwing them out there. Like at the end of "When Harry Met Sally" when Sally said crying "That's just like you Harry, you say things like that and you make it impossible for me to hate you, and I hate you Harry, I hate you..." then she finally gave up her anger and they embraced and kissed.

For the first time, my W today said she could see I'm different now, and that she likes who I am, but she needs time to make sure the changes stick.

Even if you choose to hang in and wait, you need to get the attention of some other women. That will do wonders for your self confidence. You don't have to do any more than you're comfortable with, but just talking and being friendly is harmless, and if they reciprocate, it does feel good, and makes you realize your life isn't over. I agree with GIMA's whole list.

If you're M was as bad as you say it was, you need to just let time pass. If your W wants to pursue the D, try to treat the legal stuff as just some annoying tedious thing you have to do. It really isn't as connected to the emotional situation as you think. Many people reconcile right before signing the final D papers, and many reconcile afterwards.

Hi futureunknown-

I hadn't looked at it that way...thanks. That makes sense.

I don't want to have false hope. I have resigned myself to the fact that she's divorcing me...kinda hard not to! I've been served, and I've received the discovery documents requests from her attorney. That's "confronting the most brutal facts of your current reality". I know my changes are real too. She's told me all that stuff too.

There is no notion of reconciling at all and never has been from her. It seems like she has to maintain her anger and negative feelings in order to justify, or help her to take, the actions that she continues to take. Her attitude towards me fluctuates over the months...extreme anger, then a little softening, then anger again, and now she's at the extreme end again.

She said when she sees me, she still sees the person who treated her like sh!t all those years, regardless of any changes that I've made.

Maybe you're right about getting the attention of others for the reasons you stated. Getting a boost in self confidence would do me some good.

She was really unhappy for a long time because of the reasons that I've documented extensively in my threads. She left last February, so it's been about 8 months that we've been separated...but she made her mind up to leave long before she actually did. She is definately pursuing the divorce, and this legal stuff is scary and stressful...but I have to do it. What do you mean by "it really isn't connected to the emotional situation as you think"? I'd like it if things would work out, but I don't want to have any false hopes.

[antlers]

I don't doubt that GIMA, it's just that...it's hard to choke it down that 'this' is the woman I married and she really has and is doing the stuff that she has/is!

She ISN'T. And you aren't the man she M'd either. You both change, but she has changed in a much different way apparently.

I've been married for a long time, and I've been out of the game for a long time.

You aren't DEAD, man. You have a lot to offer.

So, finding somebody else helps you to let go of your spouse?

Sorry if I gave you the wrong idea. I think finding YOURSELF will allow you to get past where you are right now. When you have gotten yourself better mentally, emotionally, then you will be "over" your W. B/c you will understand that you may want your W, but you don't NEED her. Flirting and all those other things to boost your self confidence are designed to help you understand how strong you are and how you are both capable and deserving of a great R.

I'm sure it feels good, it's just hard to get out there and find it, even if it is there for the taking. Memories, feelings, emotions (especially negative and painful ones), regret, remorse, etc....they are hard to deal with and get over.

Water under the bridge. You cannot change the past. Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past. So, forgive yourself.

I've made many positive changes, and I get compliments daily for them, especially at work. She has changed too...but dang! I never knew she had the ability to be so cold, hard, and mean!

I know I have a lot to offer, and I'm very much alive. It's just been a long time...it's kinda foreign to me. I was very monogomous, in every way (thoughts, feelings, etc.)

I was doing really good for months, both mentally and emotionally...I just got hammered again when she told me about the divorce and some other things. That's the way I feel now...I know that I don't need her, I just want her. I'd like to feel more confident right now, along with feeling strong and capable and deserving of a great relationship.

I've read that the past only serves to help us learn to make the present and the future more fruitful. I have forgiven myself to a huge degree. I like the quote, but can you explain it a little? Does it mean that in order to accept and deal with the past...you must forgive it (the past)?

[givingitmyall]

I've made many positive changes, and I get compliments daily for them, especially at work. She has changed too...but dang! I never knew she had the ability to be so cold, hard, and mean!

I understand. Some of the things my W said to me I never thought I would hear. In fact, I never even considered the possibility she would say them. Sux.

I'd like to feel more confident right now, along with feeling strong and capable and deserving of a great relationship.

I think it's like training for a long race. I run and have done a marathon and several half-marathons. You bike, so I know you understand this. You have to train for a new goal you haven't reached before. You can't just go out and do it. So, this takes time, and you will have some minor setbacks along the way. But, keep your eyes on the goal. And before you know it, you'll be there.

I've read that the past only serves to help us learn to make the present and the future more fruitful. I have forgiven myself to a huge degree. I like the quote, but can you explain it a little? Does it mean that in order to accept and deal with the past...you must forgive it (the past)?

For me, it means you have to let go of the past and accept that you cannot change it. It is what it is. Learn fromit, but forgive yourself. Not toa "huge degree" but to hte complete degree. Forgive yourself. Keep in mind, you weren't the only one who made mistakes. You just may be the first one to realize, and learn from, them.

[antlers]

Thanks GIMA. I appreciate your help, effort, and time so far.

I took our oldest daughter out to dinner last night after I got off work. She lives with her mom. We had a good meal and a good visit. Her mom and the little kids are out of town for the weekend.

[antlers]

Just journaling...

Been working on these discovery documents that I received from her attorney. Hard stuff, in lots of ways.

Kiddos are riding the bus home to the house today and I'll have them for the next 2 nights. Yea!

Son has a basketball game tomorrow night and it'll be the first time I've seen his mom since she filed for divorce. Akward, to say the least.

Hard to imagine that she willingly gave up 50% of the time with our kids, destroyed a family, and just walked away.

50% of the time with our kids was taken away from me. I hate it.

She said when she left that she didn't hate me...and she's told me several times since then that she does hate me. She told me when she left that she wasn't a vindictive person...and she's shown me several times since then that she is. She said it was wrong to badmouth each other to the kids in situations like this...and she has badmouthed me a lot to our kids since then. She would be congenial to me at times since the separation...then the next time I saw her she acted like she hated me!?

Got a couple of weeks left to get these discovery documents done. My attorney already sent a response to her attorney, that she and I worked on, to W original petition. She'll probably get it early this week. Hate it that I gotta go through this, but I do.

[orangedog]

She said when she left that she didn't hate me...and she's told me several times since then that she does hate me. She told me when she left that she wasn't a vindictive person...and she's shown me several times since then that she is. She said it was wrong to badmouth each other to the kids in situations like this...and she has badmouthed me a lot to our kids since then. She would be congenial to me at times since the separation...then the next time I saw her she acted like she hated me!?

Mood switches stemming from confusion, guilt, anger, etc. are part of the deal. Sometimes I think they get mad and find faults to justify their actions.

Just keep the focus on your game.

[Gardener]

Antlers,

It seems like she has to maintain her anger and negative feelings in order to justify, or help her to take, the actions that she continues to take.

Exactly. A form of "script".

And, Antlers, it does get better. It does get easier. You can help it along and speed it up in so many ways that we both know and need not list here. But even if you don't help it along, it will still happen.
It will get easier. The pain will lessen. The pain will stop.