We're really going far afield from DanceQueen's original thesis, but just so we're all clear, SSMGuy says his wife knows he's going outside the marriage for sex, but that she "tacitly approves by not wanting to know."
That's why I asked in the other thread whether she has actually told him that she "doesn't want to know" about his other sexual partners, or whether that's something he assumes she must think because she did this or that.
You are in the place I was about 2 years ago. Not wanting to end my marriage and yet not getting my sex needs met inside of it. So for many years before I reached that point I had been meeting my needs outside of my marriage. My wife's silence on the matter made me feel OK about doing it... But it wasn't OK it was hurting her and I was hurting myself (hurting my daughter too).
Finally I got tired of being stuck at Schnarch's level 1 and 2 (don't fool yourself that's where you are too). I wanted more and I wanted a mature love and sex life. "OMG I hate the life I am living - it's a lie. I am lying to myself and to my wife. I know I am capable of leading a much more fulfilling life than this sham."
I wanted more out of my marriage. Those higher levels are the reasons I got married. I wanted to know my wife in the deepest possible way, I CHOSE her because I wanted to experience:
5) "Partners realize and appreciate each other's deepest core personality and potentials--pushing themselves to disclose their most private and personal truths."
6) profound bond with a single partner in which "sex becomes a form of spiritual communion celebrating the mysteries of life"
My wife is like yours in that she feels very inadequate about her sexuality. I made that even worse by attempting to meet my needs without her. It was the worst possible thing I could have done to her.
I not telling you what to do here. I'm just saying that I reached a point where the way I was living no longer felt right to me. I wanted to grow and it was me that was holding myself back. The last thing I wanted was to end my marriage. When I came to a point though where I could let go of the marriage, let go of my wife - she found that she wanted to grow along side of me once more. It was my letting go that brought us back together.
I hope you will find your truth too ssmguy. You are here, it seems, to do that.
Cyrena, the emotional needs I'm meeting is being together as a family for my kids, and also having my wife as a friend and as a good consultant in my field of work (we're both professionals in the same area). That's a lot to let go of and rebuild with someone else just to have a good sex life. But that answers the question.
I do find it curious that the general advice people normally give is that sex isn't everything. But if there's no sex, people assume your marriage must be a sham, and what could you possibly be getting out of the marriage, as if there's nothing but sex? What dysfunctional codepedency is going on? Kind of amusing contrast in attitudes. I understand the reasoning, but I'm still amused by the poetic contrast.
DanceQueen, your assumptions would correctly apply to many sexless marriages. But in my case, considering the effort we've already been through, and I don't blame you for saying it, and I might also be wrong. But I think it's trivializing the problem to be the typical "husband is unfaithful". Now the fallout from the original problem has become the "real" problem, replacing the original problem. My wife and I have been on that merry-go-round for years in various therapy setting. The issues are mine, and only mine, and I accept that, and we work on it. And eventually they are resolved. And then the therapy focuses on my wife, and finally gets to her sexual issues, and then she says she feels very stressed and terminates therapy.
So, sure we could talk about what I do for years and years, and it's one more trip around the block to run down the clock, all during which, of course, it would be expected that my wife should not engage in any sex until my issues are resolved. And this takes months. And, then when they're resolved, her issue is stress, or an issue with the therapist and their methods, or how much it's all costing, or how much time it's taking from her busy schedule.
I think you're modeling my wife as the typical cheated-on wife, and that is not going to help you solve the problem. She buys me Playboy calendars for Christmas and she doesn't mind me going to strip clubs. That is a thoughtful touch on her part, but I can also see that it helps take the "pressure" off of her. But it also makes me wish she were more jealous for my sexual attention. Does that sound like someone who is upset that I might show interest in other women?
I don't claim that anything I'm doing now is an effective solution. It's only a way for me to cope with the situation.
Cinco, I agree with you, and I've been aware of those thoughts for a long time. I'm not fooling myself, I know darn well that I'm at Schnarch's level 2. I know I'm missing a lot. But on the other hand, I love sex and level 2 is still pretty damn fun. Part of it is that the level, variety, and frequency of sex in my marriage has been so meager that I'm basically at the late-teen stage of sexual "coming out" and exploration. Experiencing a woman responding physically is an absolutely new thing for me. Certain sexual positions are totally new for me. Having a woman wanting me to touch her breasts or her genitals, or even me permitting to do so, is TOTALLY NEW for me -- never experienced that in my life. So when you understand that, it's kind of "up in the clouds" to be talking about my need for soul-searching unions and blissful spiritual sex, etc. I'm quite happy to be operating at level 2 for a while until I get the hang of things. I'll let you know when that gets boring and I'm ready to move on to the higher levels!
I think you're modeling my wife as the typical cheated-on wife, and that is not going to help you solve the problem.
I think maybe you meant "solve the problem" as in "understand the situation," but it still bears saying that we aren't going to solve your problem. That's impossible. You are going to solve it. Or not.
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She buys me Playboy calendars for Christmas and she doesn't mind me going to strip clubs. That is a thoughtful touch on her part, but I can also see that it helps take the "pressure" off of her. But it also makes me wish she were more jealous for my sexual attention. Does that sound like someone who is upset that I might show interest in other women?
None of those things are permission to have an affair, no. None of those things mean she wouldn't be upset to know that you're sleeping around. Have you asked her?
Strong&Alive, you wrote you ask yourself where is this marriage heading. The words that first pop up in my mind are, "Nowhere fast!" Hey, you have to have a sense of humor, you know.
To correct a sentence above, I meant to write, "Having a woman wanting me to touch her breasts or her genitals, or even permitting me to do so, is TOTALLY NEW for me -- never experienced that in my life."
So to elaborate on that, it should give you another perspective on why I'm not, at this time, longing for a long-term fulfilling relationship with another woman involving spiritual communion, etc. I'm just fascinated as heck with women's orgasms, and how easily some women can have them -- that's all a totally new experience for me. I feel like a kid with a new set of toys. I didn't know women could be this much fun in bed. Sure, I knew from books and instructional videos that women have orgasms, but I didn't really think it was such a commonplace thing or that they could enjoy them so much.
Perhaps the best solution for me is to arrange for sessions with one of those sexual surrogates I've heard about in California who can give me some hands on lessons in arousing a woman physically, and so on, and make up for what I missed early on and what is a normal experience for most guys.
So you have to understand how you're kind of losing me a bit when you talk about how I should be reaching for level 6. To me, at this time, the descriptions for levels 5 and 6 sound kind of like boring old-people sex. I DO UNDERSTAND that I would deeply appreciate it once I got to that point. But as a long-time HD male, the lack of erotic content in the level 5 and 6 descriptions sounds entirely penile-deflating. Nothing wrong with spiritual communion, but the concept to me looses the image of the lacy lingerie, the clothes that are tight in just the right places, the candlelight dinner with the flirtatious hints about the pleasures to come later in the evening.
Yeah, if I told my wife sexual details, it would probably upset her. Which is why she doesn't ask. And so are you suggesting I should tell her? Which would clearly up set her. And how would that help?
I suppose you're going to tell me that only by coming clean can we have a great sexual relationship reaching level 6. Not likely. She is who she is, and she's not interested in sex. The reason she doesn't want sex is NOT because I'm a sexual person. We've been down that reasoning line in therapy already, and it's done nothing but run down the clock, all during which she has a great reason for not having sex.
In fact, if she changed her mind and wanted a divorce, being able to tell everyone that it was all because I cheated would be a perfect way for her to sidestep all her own issues. Or in kindness to her, perhaps it's not fair to say "issues". She isn't interested in sex, for whatever reason, and there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. The ONLY problem is that we are not sexually compatible any longer.
So you have to understand how you're kind of losing me a bit when you talk about how I should be reaching for level 6. To me, at this time, the descriptions for levels 5 and 6 sound kind of like boring old-people sex. I DO UNDERSTAND that I would deeply appreciate it once I got to that point. But as a long-time HD male, the lack of erotic content in the level 5 and 6 descriptions sounds entirely penile-deflating. Nothing wrong with spiritual communion, but the concept to me looses the image of the lacy lingerie, the clothes that are tight in just the right places, the candlelight dinner with the flirtatious hints about the pleasures to come later in the evening.
The erotic content in level 5 and 6 is even deeper. By the time you reach those higher levels the trust between the couple is so deep it allows for even more exploration ( just ask DQ ).
Originally Posted By: ssmguy
Cinco, I agree with you, and I've been aware of those thoughts for a long time. I'm not fooling myself, I know darn well that I'm at Schnarch's level 2. I know I'm missing a lot. But on the other hand, I love sex and level 2 is still pretty damn fun. Part of it is that the level, variety, and frequency of sex in my marriage has been so meager that I'm basically at the late-teen stage of sexual "coming out" and exploration. Experiencing a woman responding physically is an absolutely new thing for me. Certain sexual positions are totally new for me. Having a woman wanting me to touch her breasts or her genitals, or even me permitting to do so, is TOTALLY NEW for me -- never experienced that in my life. So when you understand that, it's kind of "up in the clouds" to be talking about my need for soul-searching unions and blissful spiritual sex, etc. I'm quite happy to be operating at level 2 for a while until I get the hang of things. I'll let you know when that gets boring and I'm ready to move on to the higher levels!
ssmguy, my situation is different than yours in that I did get to have a lot of different experiences with women in my younger years. When I met my wife I was ready for that deep committed relationship with only her - I wanted a deeper love. We did have this early in our marriage... it all changed though after our daughter was born. Our sex life diminished to the point where it was almost non-existent. I was thrown back down the scale and rather than leave her, I began to explore my sexuality on my own.
Much like you I was content to do so for many years... but then it hit me - I'm wasting my life and I want my true love back. I had blinded myself for so long as to how I was hurting myself... hurting my wife. The sex-on-the-side was all so empty. Sure it felt good when I was doing it but it was empty all the same. I was trying to recapture what I had lost. Without true love it was just not the same.
I came to realize that to get what I truly wanted, I needed my wife to be my lover. If she no longer wanted to be my lover then I would have to leave her before finding another. Thankfully she chose to try to find a way back to me and together we are working on getting back to where we left off so many years ago. Many selfish things that I did pushed her away from me. I played a beg part in creating our problems.
I guess what I am saying is that, looking back, I wasted so much of my life trying to fill an emptiness in a shallow way. Now I know to live a full life it must be all or nothing. Fulfillment comes from deep meaning and purpose.
I'm not judging you ssmguy, just relating what happened in my life. It may help you see yourself in a different way.
Thanks, Cinco, I see your point of view. But I have to tell you that with my current meager experience with women's sexuality, I don't feel I have a good base for seeking a woman and building a deep sexual spiritual communion right away. It was already my total lack of first-hand experiencw with women's sexuality that made me blind to my wife's difficulties with sexual response in the first place. I think I'm little better off this time around because I've read some books on female sexuality, and have only recently experienced it a few times. The first time I saw a woman having an orgasm, it was a surreal experience, even kind of unsettling. On a very primal level, I just didn't expect that women were capable of this.
I think I need to have a number of "empty" and "shallow" sexual experiences just so that I can know what "deep spiritual" sex is like by contrast, no? Don't you have to know what empty but good physical sex is like before you can appreciate spiritual sexual communion?
Or maybe not. You're talking to a guy here who's not sure because he's got very few experiences. Even what you might call an "empty" sexual encounter seems pretty fulfilling to me at this point. If nothing else, it's deeply fulfilling as a novelty. First time ever seeing a woman in real life having an orgasm is something I will never forget. It's hard to think of that as empty and meaningless, no matter what the circumstances.
SillyOldBear, I've done what I've done. I'm coping as best as I can, and everything I've done I've done only after a lot of weighing the options. And I decided, whether the great moral majority agree or not, that it was impossible for me to be celibate for many years. I decided that I would rather deal with the consequences of sex outside my marriage than a continuing celibacy.
As for having permission to have an affair, you're free to think of it that way. I don't, and can't force myself to feel that I'm under any system of obligation. My wife was never given permission to end our sexual relationship either. And so, sure, two wrongs don't make a right. But it's because I want to be sexual and my wife is clear that she doesn't want a divorce that I've made the decisions I have. And the clear experience that being celibate for years, while undergoing marriage therapy, did NOT result in any sex whatsoever.
My best guess is that my wife is not interested in sex at all, and is sexually aversive even, partly due to near trauma of my constant badgering her for sex when she was not interested. Our relationship has improved greatly now that I don't ask for it anymore. But it's been that way for years now, and she's not even hinted that she's interested in sex, or even hinted that she might be in the future. Sex does not exist for her.
I think one of the mistaken assumptions in a lot of therapy and books, and forums like this one, is that ANY WOMAN CAN BE MADE TO WANT LOTS OF FULFILLING SEX IF ONLY SHE WERE WITH THE RIGHT MAN, OR HAD THE RIGHT HORMONAL BALANCE. And yet we hear that lack of sexual desire is the most common complaint among women, and that there is no magic blue pill for women, and that nobody fully understands women's sexuality. Does anybody see any giant inconsistency in this set of logic???
I would say that a big mistake in our course of therapy was the assumption, even by the therapists, that there was something WRONG with my wife for not wanting lots of sex after her husband (me) worked hard on his issues and resolved them.
You have to understand that my wife and I have been on numerous "romantic" vacations, where I put no sexual pressure on her, and we both enjoyed lots of activities -- walks on the beach, fine dining and wining, holding hands, dancing, and sharing a bed in a fancy hotel. But NO INTEREST IN SEX ON HER PART WHATSOEVER. NONE, period. And it's been that way for about 10 years now.
So I have to laugh when people suggest patience, and to try this and that, and how I should remain celibate, and did I get permission to go outside my marriage. What, you expect me to keep doing this for a couple more decades? At some point, I'll be dead of old age. At which point, where is the honor in having been celibate for the rest of my life just because somebody else didn't think I had permission?
I think anybody who sexually shuts off their spouse has NO RIGHT to expect their spouse to remain celibate for long periods of time against their will. So, basically, I'm in a situation where my wife would be upset if I try to have sex with a woman. And I should be more concerned about that than the fact that I have to remain celibate to make her not upset?
I'm not talking about permission. I'm talking about making your decision with all the information. You seem to be telling me without actually wanting to come right out and say it that you haven't discussed your ideas about having affairs in order to gain experience with female sexuality and preserve your marriage.
I'm not the moral majority. If you and your wife want to have an open relationship, I'm fine with that. I'm about as libertarian as libertarians get, and your business is your business--until you choose to share it, which you have. The fact is that you don't know whether your wife would agree that your open marriage is a good idea. You don't even know whether she realizes she's in an open marriage. You assume that she *must* know and therefore must tacitly approve, but you don't know at all.
All I'm saying is that you're leaving a lot on the table. You don't know what your wife's reaction to the idea of you going outside the marriage for sex would be--you *think* you know, which is not the same thing. Believe me, trying to read my wife's mind was and is the biggest stumbling block for me. I realize you've been through a lot more of this than I have even now, but the fact that you're unwilling to tell your wife the truth tells me that you don't have her figured out as perfectly as you think you do. If you did, you could say "Here's how I know that she knows what's up and she's at least decided to tolerate it."
I was very defensive here, too, and if I'm less so now it's because I reminded myself that no one here is going to make me do anything. They're giving advice because I asked them to give me advice. But you're cheating yourself, and worse than that, if your wife *doesn't* really approve of what you're doing, then it's not sustainable. Either she knows and her resentment is building as we speak, or she doesn't know but will inevitably find out. Either way, on the day that the volcano blows, it's going to be uglier than the divorce you're picturing now.
Now, that may all be wrong. You don't know me and I don't know you. But you came here for advice and help and I have to try and give it for myself if not for you.
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I think anybody who sexually shuts off their spouse has NO RIGHT to expect their spouse to remain celibate for long periods of time against their will. So, basically, I'm in a situation where my wife would be upset if I try to have sex with a woman. And I should be more concerned about that than the fact that I have to remain celibate to make her not upset?
The tricky part of that is that we're not dealing with rights here. We'd like to think we were, but you can't have a right to have sex with a woman, because then she'd be obligated to have sex with you. Your right to have sex with her would, in effect, enslave her. She doesn't have the right to force you to be celibate, no. And your anger over that is clear and real. But if she wants to be celibate, she *does* have the right to do that. You made a deal with her, a contract in which you promised to have sex only with her. You and I may hate this, but there's actually nothing in that contract that says that she promises to have sex with you. It's implied, maybe, but what she actually promises is that what she has to give, she will give only to you and no one else. There's nothing in there that promises that she will always have something to give. The trap that you felt closing on you is that you didn't really want to go to other women--you thought that your marriage vows meant that you could always go to her. When she became unavailable, you were between a rock and a hard place. But you did have a choice.
1. You could improve yourself and your marriage until you won her back. You say you tried this, and it worked everywhere but the bedroom. I'm no judge, because I don't know what you did or didn't do.
2. You could end the marriage. If you really believed that she had broken her compact with you, this would be the logical decision. But it's messy because she treats you differently in sexual terms than the rest of your lives, and there's still a lot of good in your marriage that you don't want to throw away.
3. You could break your own vows and go outside the marriage. You could do this by explaining to her that you're going to go outside the marriage for sex as an alternative to divorce, but what you've written makes it clear that you're afraid she would simply divorce you in that case. Or you could sneak it behind her back and hope she never finds out. That's the course you've actually chosen, though you tried to tell yourself that you had an understanding with your wife.
That choice "helped" you in several ways. It let you go out and get sexed, and it sounds like you've had some genuinely good experiences that way. It also allowed you to preserve your marriage and the things you like about it. But it has also allowed you to avoid confronting your wife and continue to play the victim to her tyrant--you can tell yourself, and us, that she has forced you into this, and any despair you feel over these affairs is really her fault in the grand scheme of things, not yours. There's some truth to that, but not enough to really convince you. Your actions are your responsibility, and there's an undercurrent of guilt and self-abuse in your posts. This is not working for you.
You cite years of therapy and counseling, so let me ask you--what happened in your counseling sessions when you brought up the idea that you two could lead separate sexual lives, with you sleeping with other women and her having as little sex as she pleases? I'm guessing that idea didn't come up. Do you see how much the game has changed since those days in your marriage?
It's so hard to make these changes, and you're in a predicament where it's going to be harder for you than it was for some of us. But your writing makes it clear that you feel the need for a change even if you're not ready to do it (or even admit it) yet. What you're doing here is important. Keep writing about what you're feeling and what you're doing. And talk to Cinco more. He understands more of what you're doing. He had affairs and--correct me if I'm wrong, Cinco--he still hasn't ever told his wife about them. Yet he has been able to make things better in his marriage.
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