ssmguy...When I left my first husband, I went through a lot of soul searching. I needed to find out what my part in my marital problems had been (other than the affairs), how to correct those problems, and how not to repeat them in the future. I also needed to understand my husband's role in our marital problems.
So I set forth on a long journey of searching for answers. I read lots of books and message boards about relationships and marriage and affairs. As I read more and more about marriage and relationships in general, I kept realizing that all my questions were more related to the affairs. Why did I behave that way? Was I justified? Would I ever be able to be faithful, or was it just my ex-husband I would cheat on but no one else? And if that was the case, why was I so cruel to him?
In my search, I learned all about affairs. Why people have them, the "reasons" they tell themselves that they have them, and the devastation it causes to everyone (including the person who had the affair). I learned that ALL people who engage in affairs are THE SAME. I learned that none of us is better than someone else.
For instance, you are currently telling yourself that "because your wife doesn't want sex", you are entitled to a sex life and that means outside of the marriage.
However, there are other people who are currently having all the good sex they could ever want inside their marriages, and yet they STILL cheat.
From your position, you would likely conclude that you are "better" than this other person. That you are more moral, and that you are "only" having affairs "because your wife won't give you good, frequent sex". You would consider yourself to be a good person who is only doing a bad thing because you are forced. You would also consider this other person to be an idiot, because he is getting all the good sex he could want inside his marriage, and YOU the moral high-ground walking person that you are, would NEVER do what HE is doing. YOU would be happy with the great sex inside your marriage and would not make the same choices he is making.
What I found in my research was that the above mindset is a load of crap. Instead, here's the cold, hard facts: ALL PEOPLE WHO HAVE AFFAIRS BELIEVE THEY HAVE A SPECIAL ENTITLEMENT TO HAVE AFFAIRS, AND THEY ALL BELIEVE THEY WOULD NOT MAKE THIS CHOICE IF IT WEREN'T FOR X, Y, AND Z, WHICH ARE CIRCUMSTANCES BEYOND THEIR CONTROL. And yet, how could ALL of them have special circumstances?
What you will find after you continue the current path you are on, is that years down the road, you will have squandered all of your energy and your integrity just to get a piece of ass here and there. And that's the end of the story. You will not find a sense of peace and happiness for having gotten those pieces of ass. You will get nothing for them except the pain and burn of how you have cheated YOURSELF out of having a good, fulfilling sex life.
Just like you, when I was married before and was cheating, I thought I had good reasons to cheat, and I figured I'd sort it out with my ex-h if I got caught. I also thought that other people who cheat who did not have a "good" reason like mine, were beneath me. The truth, when I finally uncovered it within myself, was nothing like the picture I had tried to paint for myself. As it turned out, I was simply making cruel, unjustified, selfish decisions that hurt myself and my entire family. No matter what reason I had, it was not justified. This was a tough pill to swallow and I rejected it at first. But with a sincere desire to learn about infidelity and why I had acted that way, I finally learned and understood and accepted the truth about myself: I am selfish and I made selfish decisions that hurt all involved.
Once I finally did accept this truth, I could begin actually dealing with that truth. Then I could stop denying and defending and trying to justify. Instead, I could say "ok I made this selfish decision and it was wrong and horrible...how do I make sure I will not make this type of decision again?" Finally at that point, I could truly learn some skills and grow as a person. But until I could face the truth, that I had NO JUSTIFYABLE REASON to cheat, then I couldn't move forward.
As long as you remain stuck in your position that your cheating is actually justified, you will not grow as a person. Your sex life will always be a stagnant pool of potential disease for you, instead of a beautiful spring that will nourish you like it could be.
You can learn the hard way like I did - or you can try to learn this truth and remain married. Its your choice. But what is NOT your choice is what the truth is. You cannot decide for the rest of the world, your wife, your children, and your family, that your choice to cheat is justified. It is not, and no amount of your will power or thinking about it will EVER make it so.
Instead, if you choose to accept the truth, that it is not justified and never was, then you can possibly begin growing and healing.
DanceQueen, indeed, I totally agree with your about the humorous but true observation that everyone thinks they have a special entitlement to cheat, for whatever reasons. Just like Gov. Sanford, who said it wasn't an affair, rather it was a "love story". Well, it's a love story when it's your affair, and it's a "sordid affair" when it's someone else's affair. Yes, I'm familiar with the logic. So let me get away from the value judgements here and simply state that I was celibate in my marriage for many years before I decided to literally force myself to go outside the marriage. So it's a decision I made, with the full realization there will be consequences of some kind.
And I can also tell you that when my wife and I had a decent sexual relationship, I had to deal with several attractive women who, as they say, literally threw themselves at me. But I insinctively saw it as nothing but trouble, and why would I need more of what I already have at home?
So though you might say anyone who cheats is a cheater without distinction or flavor or degree, I can only respond that I'm very much a one-woman man. But that relationship would have to be sexual. And that's something I told my wife even before we got married. Of course, at the time, she couldn't even imagine, apparently, that she'd lose interest in sex and shut me off, so she was fine with that.
My thinking is simply that, for the moment, divorce is not an option, and celibacy is not an option. And that's why I'm where I am. It's not because of any lack of control over myself, or delusions.
And wording it as squandering my energy to just get a piece of ass... humorous as that sounds, or as pathetic as it sounds, it's still way better than celibacy!! That's the problem! I'd much rather just have a piece of ass than be celibate for 10+ years straight. Let's see, a piece of ass involves a nice woman, some time together, mutual appreciation, sexual excitement, learning about sex, humor, and just plain fun. Doesn't sound bad to me! You're trying to make it sound bad by wording it in a certain way, but it doesn't work for me. It still sounds good.
But honestly, do I feel I have "sunk down" in some way? Yes, and I'm willing to pay the price. I do remember when I had a decent sexual relationship with my wife, I did "look down" on people who cheated. And now I'm one of them. What can I say? It's not cancer, you know, and I've dealt with that in my extended family too. Nothing close to it.
I don't think I will EVER think I made the wrong decision, because I know that thinking that I SHOULD HAVE BEEN CELIBATE FOR 10+ YEARS is just plain baloney. Not a chance. I am not capable of achieving that level of sainthood, so I'm not going to have any regrets about that.
My focus is really on where do I go from here. I'm more practically oriented than you, and I've seen a situation like mine work out with virtually no problems in my extended family (of French origin). I find your agonizing over cheating, DanceQueen, to be very much in line with the way most Americans think. I saw somewhere from a study that Americans cheat just as much as people in south America and Europe, the only difference is that Americans agonzie a lot more over it. And that has certainly been true in my observation.
"I'm more practically oriented than you, and I've seen a situation like mine work out with virtually no problems in my extended family (of French origin)."
And how did this "situation work out with virtually no problems"? You are saying that a man in a sexless marriage had affairs, but then worked out his sexless marriage into a fulfilling sexual marriage? If so, how did this man do this and are you going to follow his same formula?
As for my "agonizing" over cheating, I agonize over what I put my own family through due to my own choices. Rest assured, I don't agonize over your choices, but I am here to help people avoid the same mistakes I have made. You may think I am on some kind of moral mission, but I am not. I do not talk about God or morals or anything like that, if you'll review my posts. What I talk about is the TRUTH that cheating is not justified. Truth is truth regardless of morals or religion.
I'm sorry if I come across as too harsh, but the truth itself is harsh. It doesn't have grey areas. If you want to know the truth, you sit your wife and children down and ask THEM if it is better for their daddy to be a cheater or to divorce their mommy. If all of them agree it is better for you to cheat, then you have the truth you are hoping for. If even one of them says "no I'd rather you divorced her/me", then the truth is what I am saying...you are not justified in cheating no matter how many ways you try to talk about not accepting being celibate in your marriage.
I have never advocated that you remain celibate. I advocate that you tell your wife the truth and then deal with the consequences. One of those consequences may actually be that she will see the light and decide to join you in a sex life. Or she may not and then you'd have to divorce. But if you did do this, at least you would be making a justifyable decision.
You think divorce is worse that what you are currently deciding?
I hate to tell you this, but you are already divorced. Your marriage is a sham and doesn't exist. And one day, your wife and children are going to know this, and you'll end up legally divorced as well. On top of that, you will get the added pleasure of knowing you hurt everyone who loved you beyond repair.
SillyOldBear, interesting take on one's "rights" in a marriage. I'm glad I didn't read your reply before I got married -- I might have cancelled the wedding! So, before you're married, you're free to have sex with anyone, except those who don't want to have sex with you. And the only difference with marriage is that you're free to have sex only with your wife, except when she doesn't want to have sex with you. So in the sense of sexual freedom, marriage is entirely restrictive. I suppose the "benefit" is supposed to be that your spouse's restriction is to your benefit. OK, not a bad arrangement. The only problem is, it falls apart completely if one partner shuts the other one off sexually -- then it becomes WORSE than being single, especially for the other partner.
As for winning her back, we are already together in many ways. It's just the sex that's not working. We go out together for "romantic" evenings all the time. She's fine with that. We invite each other to all kinds of events, and we enjoy our time together. It's just that it's totally without erotic content or sexual followup. She knows I have a sky-high sex drive, but she doesn't want to know how I deal with it. Here's a Playboy calendar, so whatever you gotta do! Went to the strip club, sure, no problem, just don't bother telling me what you did there! Just hope you're happy and that it helped you get it out of your system so I don't have to deal with it. That's the spirit. Not exactly what I'd call the jealous wife, to say the least.
It's clear to me that given the alternatives, she wants me to stick around and continue our togetherness in all the other areas, but deal with my sexuality in whatever way, as long as it doesn't result in something embarrassing like calls in the middle of the night, or some young thing that would feel entitled to move into our house with us, etc. And that's pretty clear from many separate comments over the years.
And if, as you all seem to suggest that I do, I sit her down to really unload all the details of what I do, she would ask why are you telling me all this? You know I don't want to hear this! Whatever. And she'd leave the room. And that's happened many times when I insisted on talking about the situation. So I've been there with the honest talk, and it doesn't work. "Here we go again, another discussion about sex. Why do you insist on that over and over and over again when you know I don't want to hear it? Whatever you gotta do. Just leave me out of it." Maybe I didn't make that clear enough. That part of it has been pretty tough, at least at first, because I didn't know how to deal with the situation if my wife simply didn't want to talk about it. If you can't talk about it, you can't make any progress, was my thinking. So that might put it into perspective a little more why I have sort of taken things into my own hands and made my own decisions independent of my wife.
DanceQueen, yes the other situation has worked out with virtually no problems for several decades. They are both still married, share a household, but each are involved with other people. The kids all know it and are OK with it (more of a French culture, for sure). The "affairs" are not short term -- they've gone on for 20+ years. Neither of the other parties wants to get married -- they have their own lives and situations. I know that sounds strange to American ears. As one of our therapists said, that's unusual and it's like hitting the jackpot for that to work out for everyone without significant problems. So I'm not claiming that I can make it work out that well, but I do have some of that way of thinking, I suppose, and I've seen first-hand how it can work. My wife is well aware of that arrangement too.
You say my marriage is a sham, in spite of all the good times my wife and I have? Just because it doesn't have sex? Or is it because I have only friends-with-benefits sex with someone else? Or just with a stripper in the Champagne Room? Would it be a sham if the marriage was sexless and I had sex with only myself in the bathroom? Some women are upset about their husbands pleasuring themselves without them present. Just wondering where the "sham line" is you're drawing.
I agree with DQ on the TRUTH (Great post DQ!). And SillyBear yes, Mrs. Cinco now knows about the affairs (as well as other sordid things). The truth I thought would destroy my marriage. To my surprise and delight it has actually strengthened it and has given me back the marriage I wanted all along but was too blind to see.
ssmguy do listen to what DQ is trying to tell you. She says these things from her heart because she knows first hand, as I do, what it is like to live in denial. We know what it is like to want something so much, yet deny ourselves with our own actions.
Pay particular attention to the wasting of your energies DQ spoke of. This was the thing that I never saw over the years. There was no sex in my marriage because I didn't focus my sexual energy inside of my marriage. If you find you are a sexual being and your partner is not, then find a new partner that is. To live life split in two - a double-life - is not sustainable.
I felt as if I was dying. I had no energy for my family because they only had half of me. If you end up meeting and falling in love with someone like I did, then your emotional energy leaves your family as well. All they have left is a shell that provides a paycheck. (BTW the lover only gets half too and you break their heart when they find they can't have it all either.)
I do hear all of your arguments for justifying sex-on-the-side... They are the same things I told myself too. Still one day you will wake up and see the truth as I did. If you face it sooner, rather than later, you will be able to live as a sexual being in the light of day. I'm here to tell you that it feels great not to have to hide this part of myself any longer. To be able to focus all of my energies on the one woman that I love feels wonderful. I'm not talking morales, it feels good to me. It's all I had to do all along, I just never saw it in my dazed selfish state.
I know you may not be able to win your wife back. (I thought I would be walking away from my marriage. I never imagined it could change as it has... We both have changed and grown.) You won't regret starting now to find your truth. You are the only one that can find this.
Truth is not hidden though. As long as you are hiding, there is no truth.
Cinco, I understand what you say. Indeed, it's my fantasy to be able to focus all my energy on one woman. But as long as my wife doesn't want sex, for that to happen I have to make a lot of changes I do NOT look forward to. You say, "then find a new partner". Well, it's just not that simple. Easy to say when it's not your family. But finding a new partner means "getting rid" of the old one, splitting up the family, moving, etc., etc. And then I think, for what? When I already have a good relationship, minus the sex, with my wife?
What I'm still having trouble with is seeing how I should put everyone through all these changes just so dad can have appropriate sex a few hours a week. As if what happened behind closed doors in that regard actually mattered to anybody else.
The distinction I see here in practical terms, with regard to energy being spent somewhere, is the difference between a love affair and occasional friend-with-benefits arrangements, or encounter at the night club. There is no woman who is expecting me to leave my wife, etc. I'm not in a fog trying to decide between another woman and my wife, for example, at least not at this time (I realize that could change, and that's a risk). If tomorrow morning my wife seduced me and told me she's going to be sexual again, and she wanted me to be exclusive with her, I'd be ready to fulfill that plan immediately. That's what really matters in my mind.
I don't see that it matters a whole lot how I take care of my physical needs in the meantime, whether I take care of it by myself in the bathroom, or at the strip club, or occasionally with a friend. I really don't see how that's any of my kids' business or anyone else's. The big threshold for me is falling deeply in love with someone, and especially them with me. That's where it really can get tricky for me. And I've been careful to avoid that. Sure, I know that's not ideal, it's just what I've done.
Cinco - it brings me to tears to read your words, as I remember the beginning of OUR post exchanges so well...and you are truly recovering now...WOW!
ssmguy - I actually think your story of your friends' arrangement is a good one, and kudos to them for making it work out. Also if, as you say, your wife already knows you are likely "up" to something, she probably wouldn't be so surprised to hear you say something like "hey, how about we just have an arrangment like the so-and-so's?" She may even say "you've got a deal" and then all would be well. If that really does happen, I really will be happy for you to work out such an arrangent. Most people in your position wouldn't get that lucky...if you can call that lucky.
ssmguy, why not lay it out to your wife like this (and I am making this suggestion now after having read you and silly's posts to each other): "Wife, I have tried it your way. I have tried to be happy with infrequent sex with you, and then a little on the side when I can. But I am still not satisfied with this arrangment and I demand a better one for myself. Now I need you to help me decide what that new arrangement is. What I would prefer is that you decide to join me into a monogamous and beautiful love life together, this would be my first choice. But if you don't choose that with me and stick to it, my second choice would be an arrangement like the so-and-so's (your friends). If you have another option, please state it to me. But I can no longer sneak around to get sex behind your back anymore. That was our previous solution to our sexless marriage and we both agreed to it, but now I will not agree any longer. I am making a stand for myself and my sex life, and I ask you, my wife, to help me cross this road to a mutually loving end answer."
And then...you don't let the discussion die until there has been either one of two things:
1. An appropriate agreement for what will happen is reached, one which you are both enthusiastic about...or...
2. You have agreed upon a time and date to continue talking about this in the near future.
Keep having the discussion until you achieve #1, or keep rescheduling if you don't. I can bet you that you might have some sort of solution finally for your ssm if you try this.
I really mean what I'm saying about the above, ssm. I'm not mocking. If she truly consents to a lifestyle change like what you described of your friends and if you could both be truly happy that way, then you'd be very blessed to have found such a solution.
What do you think about my suggested speech to her?
I agree with DQ on the TRUTH (Great post DQ!). And SillyBear yes, Mrs. Cinco now knows about the affairs (as well as other sordid things). The truth I thought would destroy my marriage. To my surprise and delight it has actually strengthened it and has given me back the marriage I wanted all along but was too blind to see.
I'm not shocked that it worked out, but I'm so glad. I probably missed that part during my absence. Sorry about that.
SillyOldBear, interesting take on one's "rights" in a marriage. I'm glad I didn't read your reply before I got married -- I might have cancelled the wedding! So, before you're married, you're free to have sex with anyone, except those who don't want to have sex with you. And the only difference with marriage is that you're free to have sex only with your wife, except when she doesn't want to have sex with you. So in the sense of sexual freedom, marriage is entirely restrictive. I suppose the "benefit" is supposed to be that your spouse's restriction is to your benefit. OK, not a bad arrangement. The only problem is, it falls apart completely if one partner shuts the other one off sexually -- then it becomes WORSE than being single, especially for the other partner.
Not easy, is it? And yet, if you refute it, you have to argue that a woman doesn't have a right to decide when or whether to have sex. The truth is that she has the right to decide that, and marriage can't waive that right. It does cause complicated lousiness in many marriages, but there's no way around it except requiring that women have sex with their husbands against their wills. If you don't want that, then you have to default back to persuasion, seduction, or ending the marriage. You've chosen to end the marriage. You can't have a right to someone else's labor, someone else's body, or someone else's emotion. I realize it feels like a trap when you're in an SSM--it still feels that way to me sometimes, and my sex life is a hundred times better now than it was when I first came here. But that is the arrangement. Marriage is a long-term commitment to one person, and when you make a long-term commitment to one person or one company or one thing, you have to take into account that people change and the world changes. You're committing now to be married to that person 30 years from now. There are three ways out of the "trap." 1. Build your marriage into what you want it to be. I know you've tried to do that. I'm not lecturing you, just listing options. 2. End the marriage. Cancel the agreement. Not a good option, but an option. 3. Restructure the agreement to everyone's satisfaction by sitting down and negotiating a new structure for the marriage so that it can continue with altered rules. You say you've done this. The only thing that seems to be worrying posters here is that you've given indications that you didn't sit both parties down and negotiate the new structure, but rather made the changes on your own and hid the changes from your partner. More on that below, because you give me hope that you didn't do that.
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And if, as you all seem to suggest that I do, I sit her down to really unload all the details of what I do, she would ask why are you telling me all this? You know I don't want to hear this! Whatever. And she'd leave the room. And that's happened many times when I insisted on talking about the situation. So I've been there with the honest talk, and it doesn't work. "Here we go again, another discussion about sex. Why do you insist on that over and over and over again when you know I don't want to hear it? Whatever you gotta do. Just leave me out of it." Maybe I didn't make that clear enough. That part of it has been pretty tough, at least at first, because I didn't know how to deal with the situation if my wife simply didn't want to talk about it. If you can't talk about it, you can't make any progress, was my thinking. So that might put it into perspective a little more why I have sort of taken things into my own hands and made my own decisions independent of my wife.
I can't speak for anyone else, but it wasn't clear to me. So you did tell her that you were going to have sex with other people, and she responded that you should do whatever you have to do? I'm just trying to pin down a clear answer on that, because it does change the discussion. I don't understand the talk about Playboy calendars and strip clubs if you took the much more relevant step of actually discussing your intention to have an affair, but if you've already tried to have the discussion and gotten your answer, then you're right, you're at a later stage.
Assuming all that comes back a "yes," let's see if we can move this along a different way. You say you want to know about where to go from here, having done what you've done. The reason people have been emphasizing being honest with your wife is that if you haven't been, that's hanging over your head and moving forward is hard to do. But let me ask you this: what do you *want* to do? Where do you *want* to be, say, ten more years into the future? Do you want to be married to your wife the rest of your life? Do you see yourself trying again for a full marriage with your wife, ending the marriage at some point in the future, or continuing to get sex with other people for the rest of your life?
