One more thing--this business of French culture. I realize the French do several things differently than Americans, and that's fine. But I had no idea that you were French from your posts. Is your wife French? Do you live in France? I guess what I'm asking is, again, does your wife know that she's living under French rules of fidelity and marriage?
Beyond that the real question is still this: why are you here? What is your goal? You need to know and so do we.
SSM guy, you state, "I find it curious that the advice people normally give is that sex isn't everything. But if there's no sex, people assume your marriage must be a sham, and what could you possibly be getting out of marriage, as if there's nothing but sex. What dysfunctional codependency is going on?"
I think every poster to you is trying to make the same point: neither a sexless marriage nor marriage without sex is capable of fulfilling both your body AND soul (and we are all creatures who need to nurture both). The most mind-blowing sex is only possible in a committed relationship in which partners are completely open to each other. Meanwhile, the amount of emotional connection possible in a sexless marriage is hugely restricted because there is AT LEAST a half of each of you that you never share--hence, you are not experiencing very profound intimacy. Are you able to discuss all your non-sexual hopes, fears, shame, confusion, etc, with your wife?
Any marriage in which 2 people cling together in order to avoid having to face themselves is by definition dysfunctionally co-dependent. Schnarch's 6 levels represent levels of reduced co-dependency. Your wife does not want to face her sexual abuse or explore her sexual nature, while you, perhaps, seek to avoid any emotional connection with a sexual partner?
Schnarch describes complete physical and emotional engagement with one's partner: "Arousal and orgasm come effortlessly. Orgasm almost seems secondary because it is no longer the focus of attention. ... You may feel yourself moved to tears by the happiness and love you never felt yourself capable of feeling. ... When orgasm occurs, it's explosive AND illuminating. New and lasting insights emerge, providing leaps in personal development." I don't think that can be dismissed as "boring old-people sex." I can understand why at the moment you want to explore as many women and sexual experiences as possible, but be aware that the dehumanization of them as so many genitals, breasts, tight bodies, etc, also results in a diminishment of yourself (again, as a sexual person divorced from his emotional and spiritual side).
But I had no idea that you were French from your posts. Is your wife French? Do you live in France?
No, my family moved to the US when I was young. But there's a lot of European influence in my side of the family, of course. So I see a lot of the puritannical contradictions more clearly in American society. But that's a whole other discussion!
I can understand why at the moment you want to explore as many women and sexual experiences as possible, but be aware that the dehumanization of them as so many genitals, breasts, tight bodies, etc, also results in a diminishment of yourself (again, as a sexual person divorced from his emotional and spiritual side).
I know I sounded that way, but that's hardly who I am. As much as I'm turned on by these physical attributes, they have always been part of the person in my mind. I'm not sure I can fully explain it, but I've had many positive comments from women over the years about my attitudes in this regard. Feel free to ask me any questions about this. Perhaps it will help me understand my current situation better. Part of my problem is that I've been in an unusual and unnatural situation for a long time, so this kind of discussion has helped to "normalize" me.
I really appreciate your replies, and they have given me much to think about, especially because you relate real personal and believable experiences in a way that I can picture as possibilities. I have clearly lost perspective of what's possible and what should be after all these years in a SSM. I have to read your replies several times each as various aspects slowly sink in.
There are so many ways one loses perspective in an SSM, as you all probably know all too well. For example, it takes effort for me to picture how a couple has sex 3-5 times a week. What does the guy do to pull that off? What does he say? What's he got that I don't? And then I have to realize it's not just the guy, but he has a wife who actually is waiting for him to make a sexual move. I have to remind myself that such wives do actually exist.
And by the same token, even harder to understand -- actually, I was shocked to learn of it -- is the supposedly not uncommon situation where ex-spouses sometimes get together to have sex. Apparently, even though other aspects of their relationship did not work, but their sexual compatibility is still good, and they sometimes get together for sexual reasons even sometimes when they're trying to date new people. When I first heard that and understood it, it provided a breathtaking contrast to my own marriage, and made me realize how much more sexually compatible some couples are than my wife and I. It forced me to realize that for some couples, sex can be an irresistable activity which requires no sense of duty or having to do it for the good of the marriage, etc. And in my marriage, I can't even make any sex happen, not even out of a sense of duty or anything. Quite deflating, to say the least.
And likewise, your descriptions have helped me get a better perspective on what is possible, and what I can aim for.
Thanks! (But don't end the discussion, please! This is not a goodbye, just a thanks. This is going to be a long road.)
It's not that surprising to think of exes getting back together just long enough to have sex, when you think about it. At some point, they were attracted to each other. Then, something in their situation separated them until they couldn't stand to be married anymore. But chances are, the problems that drove them apart were all part of their married life together--the kids, the mortgage, the responsibilities. When they've been divorced for awhile, those real-world details are gone and they're back to being two people with no binding commitment who find each other attractive. It's a little like having an affair with your own spouse, actually.
I kind of figured the appeal to French culture was sort of a throwaway thing . . . . in these threads, especially when two or three people are working on you at once, it's easy to get bogged down in argument/counter-argument. But it leads us down little diversion paths which are entertaining but not really addressing the reason we come here. I'm glad you stepped back and made a stop-here-and-summarize kind of post; we can all take a breath and start over for a minute.
But my last question still stands--what do you want? What is your goal?
It's not that surprising to think of exes getting back together just long enough to have sex, when you think about it. At some point, they were attracted to each other. Then, something in their situation separated them until they couldn't stand to be married anymore.
Logically it makes sense. But very hard for me to picture based on my personal experiences. For example, if I try to fantasize about reaching over to that perfect wife (a future wife, not my current one) in bed and slowly stroking her back, the fantasy woman automatically says, "What are you doing?", or "Not tonight", or "I'm tired." It's hard to picture anything else.
Maybe that's partly why I'm not overly enthusiastic about the thought of divorcing and finding a new partner. I get the sinking feeling that after the initial burst of sexual interest, it's going to end up the same way. Low libido is just about the most common sexual complaint among women, so it's certainly a very real possibility in another relationship all over again.
I have a impression (which is probably a distorted perception) that women's sexual passion, even if strong at a given moment, is in the long run fleeting, fragile, situational, flash-in-the-pan, and can disappear at any moment. Do one thing wrong, or say one thing wrong, and poof it's gone. If a woman is the least bit tired, or if anything went wrong that day, even an HD woman is totally sexless. Probably wrong, but that's my unshakeable impression.
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But my last question still stands--what do you want? What is your goal?
Playfulness, sex, lots of talk, sex, sense of humor, sex, long walks on the beach, sex, positive spirit, sex, going out to restaurants, sex, athletic activities together, sex, romantic vacations, sex, watching movies together, sex, etc. I have only half of these things with my wife, and I'm sure you can guess exactly which ones.
You can talk all you want to about Schnarch's level 6, but I'm not quite sure how sustainable that is when a woman's sexual desire can so easily disappear, dropping you right back to level 0. I mean, you can't stay at level 6 without at least a reasonably strong sex drive on the part of both partners, no?
For example, if I try to fantasize about reaching over to that perfect wife (a future wife, not my current one) in bed and slowly stroking her back, the fantasy woman automatically says, "What are you doing?", or "Not tonight", or "I'm tired." It's hard to picture anything else.
This attitude is an important part of your problem. It comes from perfectly reasonable logic--it's the voice of experience talking--but it will hold you back if you try to fix your marriage. It keeps you from making a good-faith effort with your wife, and keeps you self-sabotaging to avoid the rejection you *know* is coming. And it's insidious, because even if your wife decides to try to make a change and be more open to you, she has to fight against the hundreds of times she has rejected you. This is why M. Weiner-Davis emphasizes "acting as if" and taking your spouse "at face value" even if you don't believe her--because if you reach a point where she says she wants to try, you probably won't really believe her. You've heard it all before and you know better. But although that approach is logical, it leaves her with no opportunity to make a change. Have you ever talked about that image with your wife or your various counselors?
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I have a impression (which is probably a distorted perception) that women's sexual passion, even if strong at a given moment, is in the long run fleeting, fragile, situational, flash-in-the-pan, and can disappear at any moment. Do one thing wrong, or say one thing wrong, and poof it's gone. If a woman is the least bit tired, or if anything went wrong that day, even an HD woman is totally sexless. Probably wrong, but that's my unshakeable impression.
Well, there's a grain of truth to that, though it's not that dire with everyone. But yes, her passion is fleeting and temporary and can never be taken for granted. It has to be maintained and cultivated over time. It's a hopeless cliche, but it's true.
This thread is the first time I've heard of Schnarch, so I don't have a lot to offer there.
"You can talk all you want to about Schnarch's level 6, but I'm not quite sure how sustainable that is when a woman's sexual desire can so easily disappear, dropping you right back to level 0. I mean, you can't stay at level 6 without at least a reasonably strong sex drive on the part of both partners, no?"
It becomes more than an issue of sex drive, ssmguy.
For instance, being an athlete means one thing, and being "in shape" means another thing. Being "in shape" typically means that a person is trying to do some regular exercise because they know it is good for their body, or because they are trying to lose weight. Usually this person will struggle with the regular exercise. It will be a chore and a burden to them, but they may be able to keep it up because they want to be "in shape" badly enough.
But an athlete will exercise because he/she needs and wants to and because their body will automatically want to do it for its own sake. An athlete's body will exercise itself if you don't give it an outlet. I'm an athlete and here's an example: when I haven't given my body proper outlets for exercise in a few days, I find myself automatically doing full squats while I am drying my hair. I don't even notice it at first, it just happens. Its not because I want to be in shape, its because my body has its own agenda.
Something similar happens in level 6 sex, ssmguy. Your body is no longer just focused on getting an orgasm or getting that sexual release or on seeing your partner naked. Instead, your body and your mind begin to engage in a new way of expression together. As a united front, your body and your mind begin to have their own agenda. It is less about sex and more about fulfillment.
Yes, just "sex" will ultimately wear anyone down, even someone with HD. It will ultimately get boring if an HD person has unlimited sex...if it is "just sex".
But there is actually something more than "just sex" available to you. You can find it through a lot of reflection, soul searching, sincere desire to reach the new place with your partner, and with a lot of education.
Right now, it sounds like you believe you have yourself and your body pretty much "figured out". But you would have to toss aside all your assumptions about yourself in order to reach level 6. You would have to have a beginner's mind and allow the world to teach you something new about yourself. You are likely placing a lot of value on trying to achieve a mind blowing orgasm, but this is not the right direction to go if you want to reach level 6.
It also sounds from your post that you are confusing sexual pleasure with sexual fulfillment. They are not the same thing and have little to do with each other. Pleasure is simply a function of the body, that happens when you are touched or are touching in a certain way. In itself it is meaningless and harmless...but also it cannot really give you anything new or teach you anything about yourself. Whereas sexual fulfillment is about your mind and your emotional life...there are places within your mind and emotions which will astound you if you give yourself the chance to reach them.
For now, don't think about another partner as the only way you can fulfill your sexual mind and emotions. Think of your wife. She will most likely totally blow you away with what she is capabale of. I wish you knew Cinco's history better...his wife seemed completely unable to feel sexual and she told him this under no uncertain terms for many years. She convinced him and herself that she just wasn't sexual and that was that. And now...they are breaking through that old assumption and finding it wasn't true, it was only believed. There is a difference between what is true and what we believe in almost every case.
I think your first step should be to just slowly open yourself to the following ideas:
1. YOU and your sex life are far more complicated than simple sexual pleasures...there is so much more to sexual fulfillment. Begin to meditate upon a sexual fulfillment that is like nothing you ever considered before, but leave the partner in your meditations as your wife for now.
2. Your wife can get there from here, just as you can. Its going to require some work but it will be less work than you think. Keep thinking about that: less work than you think, less work than you think.
If you could start here, the rest will have a chance to begin to develop.
Finally, you said: "I have a impression (which is probably a distorted perception) that women's sexual passion, even if strong at a given moment, is in the long run fleeting, fragile, situational, flash-in-the-pan, and can disappear at any moment. Do one thing wrong, or say one thing wrong, and poof it's gone. If a woman is the least bit tired, or if anything went wrong that day, even an HD woman is totally sexless. Probably wrong, but that's my unshakeable impression."
Dear, I opened this entire thread just to challenge your position on this using myself as an example.
I personally know dozens of women who want it ALL THE TIME and don't stop wanting it just because their man did one thing wrong.
Trust me that for now, this is the least of your worries. Women want sex, believe me.
But as I said above, both men and women will tire of "just sex" eventually. It has to be more than "just sex". Hang in here and maybe we can help you figure out how to get to more than "just sex".
SSM Guy, I was wondering whether your wife has ever had any counselling for her sexual abuse? I ask because, when my M was ss, I was genuinely unaware for the longest time that I had had a child's response to my abuser (making my body go completely numb) and that it was creeping into married sex. The only flashbacks I ever had also occured during sex. It was true my H was being too tentative and Mr-Nice-Guy, but that was a separate issue which dovetailed into my impression that he was causing sex to feel unpleasant, or even to feel like nothing at all.
If your wife has not had counselling, I would strongly recommend it. It was difficult, but so liberating to let go of a huge, unexamined weight that I'd dragged around for years. Once it was gone I was free to be sexual again--the fact was not that I was LD, but that my drive had become almost completely blocked by the effects of that abuse.
