You can't expect her to read one book and then its all better. You CAN expect her to let the topic die again if YOU never bring it up again. You have to do what I suggested many posts back: You initiate the same conversation again, you listen to her cry, and you ask her for a real answer. Will you join me in fixing this or not, yes or no? If she says she doesn't know, she needs to think, then you say OK, we will talk again in one week and see how you feel. If at that talk one week later she tries to blow you off, you reiterate that you need an answer. You repeat this process over and over until you get her yes or her definite no.
All your advice is good, I can see that. And I hate to seem like a verbal brick wall, but here's the brick wall I've come up against in the past. If I try exactly what you suggest, the essential element being persistence, she avoids giving an answer by increasingly stating that my "sexual harrassment" of her on this issue (and she's used exactly those words when our relationship was rockier on this matter in the past) is making her hysterical and feeling unsafe, to the point where she's going to have to leave the house for a while. I know, it's crazy.
SSM: My boundary is that I will not live a celibate life. I am taking steps so that I can live my non-celibate life with integrity. I'd like you to be my partner in that, but if you choose not to be, I will accept that.
That's tough to do. And she might just decide that she'd rather just let that happen so she doesn't have to deal with her sexual abuse, or whatever it is.
And another thing that's tough for me is I truly hate the thought of her feeling forced to have sex with me just to save the marriage. And once I'd settled down, the sex drops off again. Which is exactly what happened to a close friend of mine. Had very much the same issues. Zero sex. Filed for divorce, moved out. Had a girlfriend. Ex-wife wanted him back. He went back, talked everything over. She had sex with him the first day back. Everything looked fine. He was sure it was a new era. A few months later, he told me she'd stopped having sex with him again.
Now, that's the only such divorce-threat experience I know of personally. Some of you on this forum seem to have had better luck, which gives me some hope.
If your wife treats respectful requests for sex with her husband as sexual harassment, then you should divorce her. Sex is a normal part of marriage. If sex is such an issue for her it might be a kindness to release her so she isn't always under some pressure that her husband just might want to have sex with her.
The part of you wanting to be with lots of women doesn't bother me a bit; it is that sticky part that you are doing it while married. One part of marriage is fidelity. If you can't live with that part then leave marriage to the people that can as you just aren't suitable marriage material.
No one deserves to be cheated on. You do not do that to someone you love and respect for any reason. I hope I'm clear on that
Stating that you won't continue to live in a sexless marriage isn't a threat. You are stating a boundary.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
Revised (3) include physical intimacy and sex in our M in a way that is loving and emotionally/physically rewarding for both of us as I am not interested in coercing you to be a body for sex.
ssmguy you said: "If I try exactly what you suggest, the essential element being persistence, she avoids giving an answer by increasingly stating that my "sexual harrassment" of her on this issue (and she's used exactly those words when our relationship was rockier on this matter in the past) is making her hysterical and feeling unsafe, to the point where she's going to have to leave the house for a while."
And then....?
And then she what.....pouted and acted aloof?
And....?
So what if she is accusing you of sexual abuse, being that this is rediculous? If you persist and she leaves the house, so what? What would happen next? She'd come home and you would tell her you will not tolerate the abuse SHE is laying on YOU by accusing you of sexual harrasment. So she cries and gets hysterical and leaves the house again. So....then what?
I know that when you are in those moment with her and she gets hysterical, it is upsetting and frightening to you and you just want it to be over.
but...that is exactly what she is counting on by throwing such a fit. You have children, you should know that sometimes people of ALL AGES will throw a tantrum and call you a big, fat meanie. Do you then stop your direct dealing with your child just because they currently consider you a big, fat meanie? What is the particular HARM you believe will happen to you or to her by her hysteria?
If she goes hysterical about it again, what I would do is tell her you are going to call 911 for an ambulance because you are worried for her OWN MENTAL safety, being that she is the one throwing a wild, violent fit. Tell her you are worried she needs immediate psychiatric help if she is exhibiting hysteria simply because you are stating your boundary. Tell her that no amount of her telling you that you are sexually harrassing her will make it true or make you believe that of yourself.
There is no chance for your M to improve while you are screwing other women and lying to your W about it. Try this on for size:
I hear you, but it's certainly not the cause of our problem (not saying you're saying that) or our biggest problem. She already knows, but doesn't want any details. If you say that not forcing every detail on her is being dishonest, then sure, by that definition I'm dishonest. If she demanded to know everything, I'd tell her.
No matter how much I eliminate all these other issues, the solid unchangeable reality we hit is her issues around physical participation in sex. Sure, you could say it has to do with me somehow, and I'll accept that. But note that we have been on romantic vacation many times, including when I had been celibate for years, and we had a great time, and she was quite happy and expressive about everything -- but avoided sex. She loves dancing, even close dancing. But totally avoids sex only an hour later back at the hotel. Explain that? Certainly not due to what you highlight as an issue, especially since this behavior has been the same throughout these years.
Quote:
BTW, I seriously doubt you are having sex with women who are experiencing real orgasms. Very few women would orgasm through straight intercourse, especially with a relative stranger. For other types of stimulation, it takes time for sexual partners to learn each others bodies for most women to experience reliable orgasms. So, what you are seeing is a lot of women faking orgasms.
A lot? I wish! I'd take even fake orgasms, or none at all too. I'm not having nearly as much sex, not even close, as you seem to imply.
And I'm well aware of the intercourse vs. clitoral stimulation and orgasms for women. I may have little experience, but my book knowledge is good. In fact, I've given advice to many women and couples about just this issue. My issue is wanting to experience for myself what I've preached!
Quote:
There are a lot of f'ed up reasons do this, from self-esteem, to getting bad sex over with quickly, to pumping you up, to trying to feel good by emulating a porn ideal, to simply doing what is expected of them by society. So, you can quit using the excuse of trying to get sexually educated to better please women through casual sexual hook-ups. What you will learn is how to be a selfish user who thinks he is better in bed than he is. And surely that is not good for anyone.
I hear what you're saying. And it's really quite good advice for many men. I'm probably somewhat different. I can just hear the "smug" comments coming. But I've been told I'm different in this regard in that I'm very easy to talk to in person. And though it's harder to define exactly, I realize in retrospect that I've probably had many near-emotional affairs (if not outright), with spirited conversations about our sexualities, perhaps as a safe substitute for actually having physical sex. And as a result of all that conversation and honesty, women have wanted to take it to the next step, and I've chickened out. But lots of honesty there, and I learned a lot from women that's been very helpful.
I kind of wish I had had a lot more of the kind of superficial sex you're talking about, with women acting as porn stars to pump me up. It really does sound good from where I'm sitting. [/quote]
So, if I was to ask your W, she would say: "Yes, I am fully aware that my H has sex outside of our M?"
Then why in the world would it not already be that you aren't operating under option (1), a freely chosen, happy, unresented, open M????
You have a very strange form of arrogance SSM. Your case is not special. Your knowledge is not special. Your inappropriate sexual talks with women outside your M are not special. You'd be hard pressed to find a man who doesn't understand that clitoral stimulation is important. Hard pressed to find a lonely sex-starved man who hasn't had frank sexual discussions with lonely women.
And, of course, stopping fcking others won't fix your M. But there is no chance of developing real physical/emotional intimacy with your W as long as you continue to screw others and feel justified doing it. Ridiculous. Tragic. Common. Pathetic. Indecent. Cruel. Ordinary. Childish. Egocentric. Stunted. Foolish. And those are the friendly words.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think that you are evil or irredeemable. I think you are a rather pitiful person in horrible pain. But you have got to drop the silly arrogance and the self-denial to get anywhere.
So, if I was to ask your W, she would say: "Yes, I am fully aware that my H has sex outside of our M?"
Well, first of all, she'd be chagrined that you know, because she expects me to keep quiet about it. And image is important to her. In fact, I asked her what she tells her gynecologist, because he knows she's married and isn't using birth control. And she tells him we use condoms. So she doesn't even want other people, not even her doctor, to know we have a sexless marriage.
So she wouldn't want to answer the question, and would consider it none of your business.
Quote:
Then why in the world would it not already be that you aren't operating under option (1), a freely chosen, happy, unresented, open M????
Because she doesn't want to know the details. But you could say it's there. But sitting down and talking about it is exactly what she doesn't want to do. Everyone here assumes she's willing to just sit down and talk about stuff, and my point is that's not the case. That's the biggest problem I've had for a long time.
Quote:
You have a very strange form of arrogance SSM. Your case is not special. Your knowledge is not special. Your inappropriate sexual talks with women outside your M are not special. You'd be hard pressed to find a man who doesn't understand that clitoral stimulation is important. Hard pressed to find a lonely sex-starved man who hasn't had frank sexual discussions with lonely women.
And, of course, stopping fcking others won't fix your M. But there is no chance of developing real physical/emotional intimacy with your W as long as you continue to screw others and feel justified doing it. Ridiculous. Tragic. Common. Pathetic. Indecent. Cruel. Ordinary. Childish. Egocentric. Stunted. Foolish. And those are the friendly words.
Yeah, that might be the case, strange arrogance and all. And I take my part of the responsibility. It's been very tough for me to stay totally celibate at this point, after so many years of it. It's not a justification, but contributing to it is the fact that I put off sex until marriage, thinking I'll have plenty then. And then that was almost dry through most of the years. And now, at the gut level, I'm basically hearing that I'm a total piece of crap for even considering having sex with anybody except the one person who refuses to have it with me, unless I break up my family. OK, I know, all this integrity and stuff. Great, I suppose you could say I've kind of hit the mid-life-crisis motivation, at least in the sexual sense, as the thought occurs to me that with a small number of more decades like this, and following everyone's advice to work on the marriage and stay celibate some more, I could well go to my grave with the words "Never had sex but kept his integrity intact!" on my tombstone. Big whoopteedooo! What a thrill that honor is.
So, you could say I've waited too long and been too patient with my wife, and put myself in the situation where when I hear somebody tell me I need to be patient, faithful (meaning celibate) some more, I kind of hit the limit. I look around, and I see people 1/3 my age having lots of sex with impunity, and I haven't even had a lot of common sexual experiences even once in my life, and I'm basically told that nope, I'm still not allowed to, and I'm a piece of crap if I try to have sex with anybody on this planet. If I try with my wife, she gets hysterical. If I try with somebody else, I'm a total piece of crap. Unless, of course, I split up my family, my property, announce to everyone in the world what's going one, etc. etc. Great options. And if the teenage down the street has sex with a bunch of his/her friends, NO PROBLEM, that's expected! Nice.
Not a justification. Maybe not even an explanation. Maybe just venting, but boy it feels good.
Poor SSMguy. Imagine that he has to sit and bare the fact that someone somewhere is having sex and he isn't. Unless he is breaking his marital vows that is. But that is o.k. because his wife is forcing him to do it. He has no choice whatsoever. "but you don't understand she does . . . . and . . . and doesn't . . . hysterical . . . wah wah . . ." My heart is breaking for you.
Your marriage is sexless because you are a coward. You would rather slink off and bang some bimbo than help your wife get to the place where she can deal with her sexual issues. I know . . . you've done everything possibe . . . everthing possible idea in the world you have put to the test and found it lacking.
Divorce your wife. She deserves better than you. You don't deserve to be anyones husband. Maybe someone's f-buddy.
Stop deciding what your wife wants. I bet if you ask her, a wh@re for a husband would probably be pretty low on her list.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
