There is one nagging thing which bothers me, but which nobody is really addressing, probably because it's a unique issue to me, and not at all to the other posters here whose problems have otherwise been similar to mine. And that is the issue of my rather meager first-hand sexual experience, and the challenges that poses for both my wife (who is even more inexperienced in many sexual senses) in trying to get things to normal. This blind-leading-the-blind aspect has already contributed to our lack of recognition of the extent of the unusualness of our situation, even when it seemed to me that sex was good.
It goes without saying that everyone on this forum would not approve of going elsewhere to get that experience. The reasoning would be that you could never learn about a really meaningful Schnarch Level 6 sexual experience from a friend with occasional benefits. Again, that misses my point, like telling a starving concentration camp inmate to avoid the 2003 wines from certain California vineyard because that was a bad year. Sure, level 6 sounds good, and I think I can visualize it emotionally, and it sounds great. But if I were to divorce, my giddy thoughts revolve around dating lots of women and having casual sex for a good while, something I feel I missed when I was young because I got married a little too soon, and because I then also missed all that good sex and experience I thought I was going to have in my marriage to make up for the lack of experience before marriage!
And only because I'm anonymous on this forum, do I dare admit that at my age, I'm pretty sure most people in their 20's have more experience with mutual arousal, petting to orgasm, etc. than I have had in my entire life. I would like to have that excitement of going through the first driver-ed, on this topic, so to speak. Perhaps I can get my wife to that level and we can both experience things most people get to before they're out of their teens.
I remember listening to some teenagers calling into one of those love-advice shows such as Sue Johanson "Talk Sex", or the old MTV Love-Line show, and they were asking questions that clearly showed they were more experienced than I was. And they were frequently calling about improving a situation -- a situation which, if I could even reach what they were complaining about, I would consider it a huge improvement in my marriage.
And I remember one young woman casually telling me some things she was doing with her boyfriend and asking for advice, thinking I was far more experienced since I was married and had kids. I gave her lots of good advice, but I had to rely entirely on my book knowledge and common sense. I felt ashamed and jealous and upstaged by a woman less than half my age because I had never been able to get my wife to share in any of the things she assumed was second nature to people like me.
So my motivation for going outside of my marriage might be a little different from the norm. That doesn't justify it, but I'm not looking for anybody's approval, and it doesn't bother me if anybody disapproves. I understand your reason for saying what you say. But I also realize you're coming from a different experience than me in some ways.
I just want to know what it's like to have really good physical sex, with both parties having orgasms, taking turns giving each other orgasms, having a woman on top for intercourse. I just want to know what it's like to look forward to things like that happening, and knowing with some certainty ahead of time that it will happen, and knowing it's not going to be a struggle, and feeling like even if it happens, it's just someone doing me huge sacrifice and favor. You know, stuff like that young woman was experiencing almost DAILY with her boyfriend, apparently.
But as much as some of these little issues have gotten under my skin, I'm also an optimist with a sense of humor. I think I can say I'm one of the few people my age who can truthfully look forward to delicious first-time basic sexual experiences at my age. I'd be curious to know how some of you women on this forum would feel about a man with such lack of experience. Not that I have a problem meeting women -- I've had a lot of women coming on to me over the years, and passed up a lot of opportunities I'm sure some men would have mindlessly jumped at. But what kept me out of trouble was that I already had a nice wife. But a few times the thought also crossed my mind that I was not anywhere near as sexually experienced as they were, and I had NO experience going through the steps of successfully physically arousing a woman. In fact, I remember one woman who apparently had a crush on me -- always came by my office just to "chat". At a party, she wanted me to feel her up. What saved me, besides general principles and being faithful, was that in the rush of the moment I was sure she was lying to me becaue my wife had always hated being touched that way. So nothing happend. It wasn't until after the party and I had time to think about it that I said to myself, "Wow, what an idiot I am!" Not in that I didn't take advantage of it, but that I didn't realize that she wasn't lying.
So that's some of my motivation. I can't stop thinking about messing around with women who want me to touch them in sexual ways. A totally new experience for me. I'll worry about Schnarch level 6 when I feel more on keel.
OK, I'm ready for the lecture about how focused I am on tight bodies and how I'm stuck in a teenage sexual mind. Well, in terms of experience and fascination, there would be some truth to that. But I believe I can advance past that with some positive experiences.
The question is, how can I get to a more normal mindset on this by working only with my wife? Who it is now apparent to me is even more "inexperienced", so to speak?
The fact is, kids DO NOT automatically feel OK about their parents sleeping with other people JUST BECAUSE they have divorce and re-marriage paperwork that makes it all official, kosher, and holy. To a lot of kids, it feels wrong that parents sleep with new people, sometimes regardless of whether they do it in a marriage, or after a divorce.
Quite true.
My mom and dad separated and then divorced when I had just turned 7 (between 1st and 2nd grade). As bad as the fighting was before she moved out, it didn't get any better afterward as my brother and I were pawns in the power play. My brother, who is 3 years younger than me, didn't really have a lot of memories of my mom and dad together, and in some ways he was more vulnerable to the propaganda than I was.
Although neither of them remarried, it was difficult at times to deal with all my dad's girlfriends. A parent who insists that you tell the truth except when it comes to whom he is going out with....creates many difficulties.
When my first wife told me that she was having an affair, I was right back to the day my mom told me that she was leaving. Our son was 3 when she told me and turned 4 right before she left. Within days of moving out, her boyfriend/lover moved in with her. He has no real memory of a time when his mother and I were together and in love with each other. His mom and I did not use him as a pawn and my son has thanked me for that, saying that as divorces go, we did the very best we could to keep him out of the middle of it.
I was always careful to not say anything derogatory about her out of anger in his presence. I never pumped him for information to know what was going on. But if he had questions, I almost always answered them AND when I did I answered them honestly.
Now, 25 years later, my son is asking adult questions about what really went on and comparing his own experiences with what he has observed and my experiences. I know part of what is driving this and part of that is that it really was not okay (given the way things have turned out and some of the things he has told me) for his mom to leave me.
Of course, I waited for her to come back and she didn't. And eventually, I went my own way and started dating, which was probably a big mistake on my part.
Divorce and effects on children are very big and can reach far beyond what we can imagine. I notice that people my age who were the children of divorce have a completely different perspective on it than those adults that never experienced it as children.
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
I’m going to step out here and just say what is on my mind after reading this discussion.You seem to have this idea that you are somehow unique, that you are possessed with keener senses to detect a greater truth be it in American culture or some intellectual argument. Just so you know you are not unique. You are an adulterer. And a smug one at that. And I know of what I speak for I can see a lot of myself, or at least how I used to be, in you. My marriage was sex-starved for a long time and I too decided that I was owed sex and if my wife wasn’t willing then I would just go find it. It was the most careless and selfish thing I’ve done to date. I hurt my wife terribly.
You see, it matters nothing if your wife is frigid or bangs you like a drum. What matters is what you do. You have chosen to seek sex outside of your marriage because you are too much a coward to address the issue head on. I know you will justify and pontificate how you’ve done everything that can be done, that your situation is just so much different, that you are much more European in your understanding and us ignorant Americans just can get it. Really you are just a child whistling through the graveyard.
A man/woman with integrity would say to their spouse “I refuse to live in a sexless marriage, what are we going to do about that.” And get on with it. What a person with integrity wouldn’t do is give themselves permission to commit adultery. . . and I use that word for a reason. I am not religions, but that that word has weight. It means something. Marriage means something. If your marriage is broken, and believe me from what you have written yours is an absolute mess, you fix it. You use every once of your strength and your vast intellectual fortitude to find a solution and achieve a truly intimate relationship. If you get to the point where you both have tried everything and you just can’t find a way to resolve the issues then you separate. You do not have to divorce, but of course that is an option.
Using other women that you don’t really care about for sex shows a certain lack of empathy, and for a married man to do so shows a lack of ethics. No amount of verbal masturbation on your part will change that.
Finally, what do you think your kids will think when they find out about your behavior. And they will find out if you keep at this. If you are honestly fine with your behavior sit the family down and let them know what you’re up to. Give your parent, and her parents too a ring and fill them in as well.
Look, you are a big boy and can do what you what with your life. In fact, I don’t really care how many women besides you wife you bed. Perhaps you can make it into the hundreds if you try really hard. But go at it with honesty. Be fully aware that you are taking a dump on you marriage each and every time you do this behavior. And this will crush your wife when she finds out. I didn't think my wife would really care about my adultery either, she didn't want sex so why would she care that I was having it with someone else? I was very wrong. It deeply wounded her. And to see that hurt in her eyes and knowing I was the cause was a truly that nadir of my life.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
ssmguy you said: "Sure, level 6 sounds good, and I think I can visualize it emotionally, and it sounds great. But if I were to divorce, my giddy thoughts revolve around dating lots of women and having casual sex for a good while, something I feel I missed when I was young because I got married a little too soon, and because I then also missed all that good sex and experience I thought I was going to have in my marriage to make up for the lack of experience before marriage!"
If you were to divorce or separate, I would 100% agree that you should date around and sleep around for a good long time until you feel you've experienced a significant amount of sex.
Reaching for level 6 isn't really what this discussion is about. It was brought up (by Cyrena) to show you a point, in rebuttal to what you said you were afraid would be "boring old people sex". It is a great idea to use for motivation however, for all of us, so that we know there is something "more" out there.
However, level 6 is something for committed long term partners, as you know, and therefore it can't work for you and your wife right now anyway. Nor should it be what you are looking for straight out of the gate when you end up divorced (which I give you about a 70/30 chance of divorce right now, because of your own mindset).
I was married AND pregnant at age 20, and I immediately also had a 3 year step-child. So I spent the next 17 years taking care of them. When I left my ex-h, I was determined to get out there and date, have some fun, have some unattached sex, play around, learn things, meet people, etc. And I did do that - and it was great. I highly recommend you do the same.
But I really don't see how that point has anything to do with the discussion? You still seem to be projecting upon the posters here some agenda that we don't actually have. We are not trying to get you to be a level 6 Schnarch expert. We are trying to get you to see you are currently on the path to divorce, that there is possibly a way to overcome your marital sex problems, and that you could even end up in that beautiful place of level 6....but the point is not the level 6. The point is that your way of dealing with your problem isn't working and you are going to lose your marriage because of it eventually.
One more thing. Have you realized that you may end up divorced because your wife has an affair, falls in love, and asks YOU for one? The way you are handling your marriage right now leaves your wife prime for an affair. I know you, like most people in your shoes, would think "no way, she doesn't even like sex, why would she have an affair?" But you would be surprised to know just how many women who "don't want sex" end up in affairs, as their sex starved husbands are just amazed and dumbfounded.
But I really don't see how that point has anything to do with the discussion? You still seem to be projecting upon the posters here some agenda that we don't actually have. We are not trying to get you to be a level 6 Schnarch expert. We are trying to get you to see you are currently on the path to divorce, that there is possibly a way to overcome your marital sex problems, and that you could even end up in that beautiful place of level 6....but the point is not the level 6. The point is that your way of dealing with your problem isn't working and you are going to lose your marriage because of it eventually.
I would agree with all of that. And I would add that I was also in years of devoted celibacy, therapy, etc. And that also did not work.
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One more thing. Have you realized that you may end up divorced because your wife has an affair, falls in love, and asks YOU for one? The way you are handling your marriage right now leaves your wife prime for an affair. I know you, like most people in your shoes, would think "no way, she doesn't even like sex, why would she have an affair?" But you would be surprised to know just how many women who "don't want sex" end up in affairs, as their sex starved husbands are just amazed and dumbfounded.
Yes, I've considered that seemingly unlikely possibility many times. In fact, I sometimes joke with her about it to see what she says. If she's been out late (typically for work assignments or a charity), I ask her who she's been out with, and what took so much extra time -- did the condom break? It's funny we can have a pretty open sense of humor about stuff, as long as it doesn't directly pertain to her issues around having sex with me. And if she was actually having a torrid affair with someone else all along, it wouldn't be the end of the world, nor our friendship. And it would on some level be a refreshing change to know that she was actually enjoying sex. I think she deserves a happy life. Sure I would have feelings about it, but with a lot more understanding and perspective than the blind feelings one might have about this kind of situation at a younger age.
I’m going to step out here and just say what is on my mind after reading this discussion.You seem to have this idea that you are somehow unique, that you are possessed with keener senses to detect a greater truth be it in American culture or some intellectual argument.
No, not keener sense, just different. I don't think Europeans have a keener sense at all. In fact, I prefer the American perspective on other areas of life.
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Just so you know you are not unique. You are an adulterer. And a smug one at that.
Well, I do meet the definition of adulterer, I know that. I'm getting the impression that you're using that word here because you think it would convey a sense of guilt. It doesn't for me. It would take an American attitude to feel that guilt to the extent that perhaps you think I should. I know couples who are OK with it.
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And I know of what I speak for I can see a lot of myself, or at least how I used to be, in you. My marriage was sex-starved for a long time and I too decided that I was owed sex and if my wife wasn’t willing then I would just go find it. It was the most careless and selfish thing I’ve done to date. I hurt my wife terribly.
I totally understand that, and I would not recommend it generally.
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You see, it matters nothing if your wife is frigid or bangs you like a drum. What matters is what you do. You have chosen to seek sex outside of your marriage because you are too much a coward to address the issue head on.
I feel I have very much addressed it head on, even to the extent that I drove my wife to hysteria with my constant pressuring and trying to talk about it, and going to therapy, etc. If that is not head on, I don't know what is. You seem to be making the same assumption a lot of casual commentators make, namely, the fact that I have not succeeded in getting my wife to be wonderfully sexual NECESSARILY MEANS that I have NOT addressed the issue head on. Would you not agree that for some couples, the marriage continues sexlessly even when the issue has been addressed head on?
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A man/woman with integrity would say to their spouse “I refuse to live in a sexless marriage, what are we going to do about that.”
I have done exactly that. But then you predicted that I would pontificate and say just that. So you're already ahead of me.
Just what would you do if you've already tried addressing the issue head on, and done all the standard things, short of divorce itself (which solve the problem by definition), and the marriage continues sexless?
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Using other women that you don’t really care about for sex shows a certain lack of empathy, and for a married man to do so shows a lack of ethics. No amount of verbal masturbation on your part will change that.
You don't know the circumstances at all.
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Finally, what do you think your kids will think when they find out about your behavior. And they will find out if you keep at this. If you are honestly fine with your behavior sit the family down and let them know what you’re up to. Give your parent, and her parents too a ring and fill them in as well.
What parents do in the bedroom isnt' really the kids business. What they care most about is how we related to them, and that is working well.
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Look, you are a big boy and can do what you what with your life. In fact, I don’t really care how many women besides you wife you bed. Perhaps you can make it into the hundreds if you try really hard. But go at it with honesty.
I have. I've told me wife everything she wants to know.
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And this will crush your wife when she finds out.
She already knows, but doesn't want to know the details. But she would prefer that I keep it to just strip clubs and playboy calendars. But that isn't the problem in our marriage. The marriage is pretty much the same as it was when I was totally celibate and miserable, with the improvement that I'm no longer endlessly pestering her for sex. And she seems happier too. I know you will pontificate and say that's a sham, and that I'm smugly European, and such. OK, I get it.
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I didn't think my wife would really care about my adultery either, she didn't want sex so why would she care that I was having it with someone else? I was very wrong. It deeply wounded her. And to see that hurt in her eyes and knowing I was the cause was a truly that nadir of my life.
Yes, I will admit I have certainly thought that. But my wife's reaction to it has not been the same. In fact, I would have preferred if it really mattered to her, as that would in some way show that she cared more to fill that role with me. I don't suppose your wife would buy you Playboy calendars or remind you of a discount night at the local strip club, just to get your attention away from her so she wouldn't feel sexually pressured, while trying to still show that she thinks about your sexual needs? Well, if not, then my wife is different from yours, and it's not just my smug attitude, no?
I would love to hear my wife say, or even demand with a stern voice, "I don't want you to see other women, or even think about them." because it would very much imply that she wanted my focus to be on her. And it would allow me to reply, "OK, does that mean you're willing to work on us -- let me know what I can do!" As it is, she would rather that I spend time looking at Playboy centerfolds. Perhaps I'm letting her off too easy by going along with that. The situation is static, and she's got her life full of other rewarding things, and she's not dealing with any issues regarding our relationship, since she thinks that I'm pretty happy with the way I'm coping.
It's been my first assumption, that my sexless marriage was a typical one, that led to a lot of approaches which have NOT WORKED. So that has perhaps led me to the "smug" view that mine is different, if for no other reason than that trying the same approach again doesn't seem fruitful.
...the issue of my rather meager first-hand sexual experience, and the challenges that poses for both my wife (who is even more inexperienced in many sexual senses) in trying to get things to normal. This blind-leading-the-blind aspect has already contributed to our lack of recognition of the extent of the unusualness of our situation, even when it seemed to me that sex was good.
....And I remember one young woman casually telling me some things she was doing with her boyfriend and asking for advice, thinking I was far more experienced since I was married and had kids. I gave her lots of good advice, but I had to rely entirely on my book knowledge and common sense. I felt ashamed and jealous and upstaged by a woman less than half my age because I had never been able to get my wife to share in any of the things she assumed was second nature to people like me.
....I just want to know what it's like to have really good physical sex, with both parties having orgasms, taking turns giving each other orgasms, having a woman on top for intercourse. I just want to know what it's like to look forward to things like that happening, and knowing with some certainty ahead of time that it will happen, and knowing it's not going to be a struggle, and feeling like even if it happens, it's just someone doing me huge sacrifice and favor.
...OK, I'm ready for the lecture about how focused I am on tight bodies and how I'm stuck in a teenage sexual mind. Well, in terms of experience and fascination, there would be some truth to that. But I believe I can advance past that with some positive experiences.
The question is, how can I get to a more normal mindset on this by working only with my wife? Who it is now apparent to me is even more "inexperienced", so to speak?
Part of me shares some of your feelings and frustrations, as I married young, and my wife was a virgin prior to me. When I first started dating my wife, I was "technically a virgin" although had been involved with heavy petting to mutual orgasm with other girlfriends.
First, congratulations on knowing the right and honorable thing to do in focusing on working on your relationship with your wife.
I think that you are raising the question of which is superior "real experienced based learning" or vicarious learning. I would say civilization has concluded (i.e. school learning is the principle form of learning in most developed and developing nations) that book and lecture based learning is good enough.
Having said that, there are certain "arts" and "crafts" that require a lot of hands on training and apprenticeship. If sex and marriage required such instruction, then prositution (male & female) would be univerally legal and "starter wives" would not be a joke, but a respected way of acquiring experience. While there are sex surogates who help people with certain problems, they are not universally perscribed for problems in marriage.
Therefore, my conclusion is that books, videos, marriage workshops, conseling should probably be sufficient to provide any "education" not gained through mutual trial and error.
There are some pretty "hot" DVD's out by the Sinclair Institute on things like mutual erotic massage and ways to better sex that if you have a willing partner could allow you to "spice things up" quite a bit. Sinclair Iinstitute Video Store
You need to be careful on the Sinclair DVD's as your wife could easily react to these as pornography as opposed to therapy. They try to say they are educational, but they are quite graphic. Most "porn stores" carry them so they must have some appeal to both markets. The Joy of Erotic Massage DVD is probably a little over the edge for my wife and it is about as tame as they have. Consider this as a future option.
From my perspective, trial and error with book, video, and Certified Sex Therapist (an some support and sharing from forums like this) is the path I am trying to follow and hope will lead me to a more happy marriage. Currently, I am definately not there.
I have not had sex with my wife for several months, but she is touching me (in her own sisterly way) much more and I feel that there is some healing that is happening. I have recently gotten a number of ideas and books to read from this forum and a spark of hope has been re-ignited in my heart for the moment.
You know the right thing to do. Hang in there and good luck.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
If you were to divorce or separate, I would 100% agree that you should date around and sleep around for a good long time until you feel you've experienced a significant amount of sex.
That makes sense, and it's certainly what I'd do in that case.
So my challenge is how can I get that out of my system if I don't divorce and concentrating just on my wife, and hoping that things will improve, after many years of celibacy, and few that have not been entirely celibate. It will take effort on my part to be happy with the limited sex we previously had, which was just enough at the time to give me hope it could improve. If I could turn her into a once-a-day enthusiastic erotic partner, it would be a miracle.
I'm hoping for that huge turnaround and epiphany on her part. I wonder if that's possible. Some of you seem to be suggesting it, though I certainly wouldn't have thought it would be possible. Sometimes a huge change can be much more powerful than gradual changes, simply because they are so hard to ignore. But I don't know where to begin with that with someone whose possible current issue might be that she has worked on her sexual abuse issues, but has decided not to work through it. Or perhaps has felt that she has worked through it, but that it hasn't helped make her feel sexual, and so she's given up on that? She is such a spirited and capable achiever in other areas of life, to her great credit. But I also sense it's in part to make up for some areas of her life she doesn't want to face up to, or feels she has no hope of succeeding with. I'm not her, so I don't know. I've tried asking her about this, but a spouse cannot play shrink, as you well know.
Your sexless marriage IS TYPICAL ssmguy. You have not named one thing about your situation that is atypical.
Lack of sexual experience in you both? Typical.
Married too young? Typical.
Wife who would rather you deal with the situation yourself without bothering her? Typical.
You have had affairs? Typical.
Where is the atypical aspect to your ssm???
DQ
Well, OK, you're convincing! You might be right. Then why haven't the typical solutions worked? We've been to the very best therapists, and even some not so good.
There was a Lifetime Network movie about a guy who was a sexual addict, played by Harry Hamlin and Lisa Rinna (if I got those names right). The one part of the movie I'll never forget was when they were in therapy, and he was admitting to his sexual escapades, and she was upset and said that she would continue the therapy under only one condition, and that was that he must promise that he would not participate in any sexual activity that did not involve her. That response seemed utterly different from anything my wife would say in that situation. Of course, her husband in the movie indicated that he'd try, but couldn't make any promises, again totally different from what my reaction would have been.
By contrast, if my wife had said that in therapy, I would have immediately agreed to her terms, and I would have felt hugely accepted as a sexual person by my wife. Rather, the message I've gotten from my wife in the last 10+ years is that she loves me, wants me around, wants my companionship, etc., but she doesn't want my sexuality at all, period. And she recognizes that and feels it's only fair that she show some consideration by buying me playboy calendars and such.
That doesn't seem like the typical cheated-on wife's attitude to me. But maybe that's just a small variation on the norm in the bigger picture.
