ssmguy said: So she doesn't even want other people, not even her doctor, to know we have a sexless marriage.
Then here is your tool, man. She doesn't want other people to "know". This might actually cause her to CHANGE if they DID know. Sure it would be embarassing, who cares? She is afraid of embarassment, so use it to your benefit.
How?
Like I said in my above post, when she goes hysterical on you again, you say "listen you are making me worried for your psychiatric state...I'm going to call your (mother, sister, female best friend, whoever you think would embarass her to know) to come get you and be with you so you can calm down."
She will immediately stop her antics at that point because she doesn't "want anyone to know about your sexless marriage".
Another way to use the embarassment to your benefit is to mention your sexless marriage in a joking way in front of her to friends when the opportunity arises.
Such as, dinner party with friends, husband X mentions something about sex or about a sexy movie he's recently seen, and you say "well, I can't really comment as I haven't had sex in so long I can barely remember it!"
She's going to turn red, maybe start a fight later, tell you that you've ruined your chances at sex ever again, and blah blah blah. Then you use this as your opportunity to say: "I'm not going to hide this any longer. I'm on a mission to seek out help for our ssm and I stated my truth at that moment. Who cares if other people know we are sexless? Its better than them thinking a lie about it, isn't it?"
She will scoff, sulk, balk....but once she realizes you are serious and you aren't going to just pretend this isn't happening she will start changing.
The only real problem in your situation is that you've let it go on too long by letting her bully you into shutting up about it, to her or to anyone else.
I have another suggestion for you here, which is individual counseling. Find a male counselor who specializes in helping people cope with major life transitions (such as divorce) and start talking through the pros and cons of staying and accepting (and being celibate) or leaving and beginning your new life. Tell your wife this is why you are going to counseling, this is what you are going to discuss. Tell her that you plan to be open about the issues, including her issues.
This alone might make her more willing to discuss this again.
Ssmguy, I know it doesn't seem like it right now, but your wife is not stating her truth when she is being hysterical, nor when she claims to not need/want sex. She actually does need it and want it, she just doesn't know that yet. She will know it when the following occurs:
1. You make it clear to her that you will leave eventually if things don't change.
2. Some time goes by while she contemplates the horrible outcome of divorce, and she begins to soften up and be more open to changing.
3. You go through some serious hard work, but some of it will be fun (like sexual exerices together, which by then she will be willing to do).
4. She begins to become more and more open to her body and the pleasures that are possible within it.
5. You keep your end of the bargain, remain faithful (but not celibate at this point) and keep working with her while still maintaining that half way isn't good enough.
6. She sees that you are serious and she will THEN FINALLY begin to understand how much you love her and want to have a healthy sex life with her...finally she will realize this is good and healthy and what you have been asking for all along, and the more she experiences this the more she is open to it.
7. When you make it this far, sex will become more regular (if YOU don't drop the ball) and more enjoyable for her. She will begin to find her OWN sexual center within herself and it will start calling out to her body to get more sexual attention from you.
Right now, she is hiding behind a fear response to sex that she developed for a good reason (past sex abuse) but this fear response is no longer valuable to her, and is in fact inhibiting her from healing. She will eventually read this in books, or you two will explore this idea together and discuss it...without hysterics and without fighting. She will then one day realize just how much of an injustice it was to punish YOU for what her abuser has done for all these years. When she gets to that point, she will be filled with regret for those lost years.
Esox, you should be glad you weren't around when I started here. You would have tracked me down and bludgeoned me to death with a self-help book. A big one.
You know, SSMGuy, your wife is not lying to her doctors and friends and family because she approves of your sexless marriage. You get that right? She knows something is wrong here. She realizes you aren't a happily married couple. Up on the surface, she resists your attempts to change things because change scares people even when the status quo sucks. We all prefer the devil we know, within limits. You're almost as scared of change as she is; that's why you haven't pulled the trigger on a truly unequivocal statement that you will not accept sexual starvation--as you yourself stated, you're afraid she'll call your bluff and you'll have to go through with it. And the truth is, you might. But we're betting you won't because we've been down this road.
My marriage is not "fixed" or "perfect." We have our problems. But let me give you a little glimpse of where we are now. The weekend before last, we had great sex late Saturday night. I took the boys hunting that day, and she went out with her friends that evening. She came back and, to use the dry clinical term, "initiated." I responded with joyous alacrity.
Then . . . disaster! Her period . . . a couple of nights where the kids did astoundingly stupid things and wore us both out . . . and a dentist appointment that left her mouth full of pain. None of it her fault, but I'm not *that* recovered . . . after a week I start to wonder, and after ten days I was getting antsy.
Last night, I hoped, would be the night. The boys and I cleaned the house a bit and she and I made dinner together. I rubbed her shoulders and kissed her neck as I usually do, but with more urgency, and she responded with deep kisses and encouraging noises, and then I screwed up. I tried to get her to go upstairs with me right then. She didn't want to do that. "How about tonight?" she offered. I should have said, "I'll hold you to it!" but I didn't. I told her about my frustration and about how I didn't like being constrained by her puritan rules about sex--that it must done at night, the kids must be asleep, no mornings, no daytime, etc. That was a mistake. It was something I needed to say, but it would have been hard to pick a worse time to say it. It turned out we'd both been expecting to get lucky that night, but I'd just started an argument about it.
We both got upset, she started to walk out of the room, but I pulled her back in and we kept talking. I talked to her about why I was so frustrated and why I brought it up. She told me she knows she has hangups and this is just one of them. I told her I thought we'd both be happier if we weren't trying to shoehorn our sex life into the brief window each night between the time we put the kids to bed and the time we're too tired to stay awake any more, and it's not like it's any of their business what we're doing in the bedroom whether they're awake or not. But I also apologized for bringing it up at exactly the wrong time.
My point is, we talked about it. We both got a little upset, and we were both honest, and we both had to take some of the blame, but in the end, we worked it out. And that night, after the kids were in bed, she mauled me like an angry she-bear.
I can see you right now ticking off the things in this post that your wife would *never* do, from talking honestly about her sexual hang-ups to allowing herself to be pulled back into the room to having passionate sex with her husband. But 18 months ago I was where you are now, right down to arguing with DanceQueen and the regulars here about how they didn't really understand my situation and they all wanted me to get divorced.
One more note on what you call the "divorce-threat." If you are threatening divorce, that is, purely using it as a threat to get your wife to knuckle under, you're right, it probably won't work. The idea is not so much to say to her "you have to do X or the marriage gets it!" The point is to take that big leap for yourself and be able to say, and really mean it, that you are not going to accept your lot anymore and you are going to do whatever is necessary. You are right that this puts divorce on the table, but it's there with some other options. The point is to control what you control and let go of what you don't. You don't control your wife's actions, but you control yours.
O.K. perhaps that was a little rough, but your entitlement just grates upon me.
Your reaction isn't unexpected. I thought for sure some people would be turned off, if not outright disgusted, with what they would perceive as pitiful and unjustified whining. Their advice would be, "Man up, and get over it!" The old macho school of keep your feelings in because they disgust me. What's next guy, you gonna break down and cry like a sissy? I don't really mind, and realize your reaction might be related to some of your own issues as well, which I know nothing about.
I'm sure you're also aware that your reaction to an honest expression by someone more sensitive to negative feedback than I am would only serve to shut them up, and they'd be more guarded about what they'd tell you. Leaving you in the position of having not much more advice to give them than simply, "Man up and get over it". Reminds me of an old athletic coach I had. We all played hard because nobody wanted to show any weakness. But that was pretty much the extent of the interaction and motivation. I had a foot injury one time, but I kept it a secret because I assumed the coach would think I was just using it as an excuse to get out of practice.
You completely missed his point. You might want to read his post again . . . or you might just want to go on from there.
I may well have misunderstood what he meant to say. I reread it, and my reaction is the same. It prompts me to discuss only what I should do, leaving my feelings out of the discussion. Action oriented, results oriented. A lot fewer words, and a lot more results.
He's trying to tell you what you could and should do about your feelings. He's not telling you to pretend not to feel them, he's telling you there's a better way to deal with them.
ssmguy said: So she doesn't even want other people, not even her doctor, to know we have a sexless marriage.
Then here is your tool, man. She doesn't want other people to "know". This might actually cause her to CHANGE if they DID know. Sure it would be embarassing, who cares? She is afraid of embarassment, so use it to your benefit.
...
Another way to use the embarassment to your benefit is to mention your sexless marriage in a joking way in front of her to friends when the opportunity arises.
Oh, you're right on my wavelength. I've done that a good bit over the years, but have toned down recently to give her space. It may be time to kick that up a notch again!
I've also used the "reverse" complaint, which gets around putting her on the defensive. Such as saying, "Why would you want to spend the evening with me when you know I'm probably going to get amorous and want to have sex?!"
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The only real problem in your situation is that you've let it go on too long by letting her bully you into shutting up about it, to her or to anyone else.
It's been a long time, but I'm not afraid of picking it up again. You all have convinced me of at least that the last few days!
And I never fail to point out all those recent medical reports of the health benefits of sex.
I certainly am not trying to tell you that your feelings are bad, or that you shouldn't feel what you do . . . feelings just are. What I am trying to get across to you, and I am only doing this because I think you are actually a decent guy, confused, but decent, is that you are doing your wife, your kids, your marriage, and yourself no favors by behaving the way you are. You are cheapening your life.
I'm not telling you to man-up and start Armageddon in your marriage. I'm asking you to consider living honestly and with integrity. I know that you care for your wife or you would have walked years ago. I am asking you to put that care into action and help your wife overcome her sex aversion. Maybe it won't work. But it just might. And you will not have to live like you are. It isn't healthy to split yourself to such a degree.
But in the end it is your choice. I do apologize for my tone . . . but not my intention. Have you ever watched a car crash . . . knowing it is about to happen but helpless to prevent it? That is what I feel when I read you situation. Believe me, your wife doesn't condone what you are doing, even if she just eats it and stays quiet. Betrayal hurts.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
So, if I was to ask your W, she would say: "Yes, I am fully aware that my H has sex outside of our M?"
Well, first of all, she'd be chagrined that you know, because she expects me to keep quiet about it. And image is important to her. In fact, I asked her what she tells her gynecologist, because he knows she's married and isn't using birth control. And she tells him we use condoms. So she doesn't even want other people, not even her doctor, to know we have a sexless marriage.
So she wouldn't want to answer the question, and would consider it none of your business.
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Then why in the world would it not already be that you aren't operating under option (1), a freely chosen, happy, unresented, open M????
Because she doesn't want to know the details. But you could say it's there. But sitting down and talking about it is exactly what she doesn't want to do. Everyone here assumes she's willing to just sit down and talk about stuff, and my point is that's not the case. That's the biggest problem I've had for a long time.
You really are an evasive guy in extreme denial who can't even look at yourself.
If "you could say" that "a freely chosen, happy, unresented, open M" "was there" then you WOULD NOT BE HERE.
Suppose the oracle of delphi were to answer the question: Is SSM's wife participating in a freely chosen, happy, unresented, open M? The answer would be NO. Face it. Face yourself.
Be honest with W and quit you cheap, self-preserving, selfish excuses. It takes about 10 seconds for you to say to W: "W I have chosen to have sex outside our M and I have had sex outside the M." You can even email it to her.
As far as the teenagers, probably 15 year olds having sex isn't really good for them. Another important distinction is that THEY AREN'T MARRIED.
Suppose the oracle of delphi were to answer the question: Is SSM's wife participating in a freely chosen, happy, unresented, open M? The answer would be NO. Face it. Face yourself.
Be honest with W and quit you cheap, self-preserving, selfish excuses. It takes about 10 seconds for you to say to W: "W I have chosen to have sex outside our M and I have had sex outside the M." You can even email it to her.
As I think I've said several times already, I have already told her that. At this point, she doesn't want to know the details. Neither of us is "happy" about the situation. Otherwise I'd not even be posting here.
Had I taken the advise to "divorce if you're going to fool around", everybody would say I kept my integrity intact, no matter how much more pain that caused everyone. Apparently, divorce is always less painful and more honorable. Really?
Oh, I think I see the logic. If I divorce, fool around, and then remarry, it would all be clean and kosher, and I'd have my integrity, and if that hurt the kids and my wife just as much, it wouldn't matter because I kept my integrity and honor. Don't you see we're working through a problem? Sure, we are essentially divorced in the sense of intimacy. And so, as some of you have suggested, my marriage is a sham. Well, if we got divorced, is that the way to fix it, just because it then semantically eliminates the applicability of the phrase (your marriage is a sham)? No marriage, no sham. Got it.
I don't understand the lack of focus on the actual problem, rather than on our IRS and property legal status as indicated by paperwork filed with the government. If you are having a loving sexual relationship with someone, and you cheat on that partner with someone else, you don't keep your honor and integrity intact simply because you are not married to that person. But as I understand it from some people on this forum, the marital status is what makes the difference. I don't agree with that.
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As far as the teenagers, probably 15 year olds having sex isn't really good for them. Another important distinction is that THEY AREN'T MARRIED.
Well, now, which way are you trying to make the argument? That sex is not recommended for 15-year-olds? Or that casual sex among 15-year-olds is OK because theyre NOT married? And they therefore keep their honor and integrity intact?
And to put on my international smugness cap, I find it a curious mixed message about "sex out of wedlock" in America. I hear that everyone should wait to have sex until marriage. And then I also hear that it's OK to have casual sex with multiple partners because you're not married.
