Therefore, my conclusion is that books, videos, marriage workshops, conseling should probably be sufficient to provide any "education" not gained through mutual trial and error.
There are some pretty "hot" DVD's out by the Sinclair Institute on things like mutual erotic massage and ways to better sex that if you have a willing partner could allow you to "spice things up" quite a bit.
Funny thing you should say that. About 15 years ago, I got the videotape "The Female Orgasm" from that outfit, in which a woman carefully, slowly and tastefully demonstrated giving herself an orgasm. That was the first time I'd ever seen what convincingly looked like a real female orgasm, whether in real life or on video. I was blown away, in part because her body language was so similar to mine when I experience the same. It was at the time, deeply shocking to actually see a woman experiencing the same physical intensity I can experience, and to realize I had never seen that before in any woman anywhere. It put a new perspective on the physical relationship I had had with my wife for so many years, where she was never interested in any touching (in fact, would always refuse such touching) or buildup of any kind, and it was just about me having an orgasm.
But after that, I started to gently ask my wife about how I could help increase her physical participation in our sexual relationship, and that is pretty much when she started resisting and becoming less interested in sex and shutting me off. It was as if she had been "found out" or something. She took every suggestion in this regard to be judgemental, and that I wasn't satisfied with her, and that she didn't measure up. It was impossible for me to put it in a good light.
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You need to be careful on the Sinclair DVD's as your wife could easily react to these as pornography as opposed to therapy.
Yeah, that's exactly what happend. I got some additional videos targeted for women on self-stimulation... videos which were highly recommended by women for other women. And it backfired badly. She took it as a huge insult, and refused to read or watch any of the stuff. At that point, I was suddenly a sex-obsessed pervert.
Things have improved in other areas since that time, but the sex never came back.
ssmguy you said: "But I don't know where to begin with that with someone whose possible current issue might be that she has worked on her sexual abuse issues, but has decided not to work through it."
We keep telling you where to begin, we've said it many times. You begin by telling her that this isn't working for you, you demand a good sex life for yourself and you demand that she work with you on it, or you are leaving (eventually).
This is the one thing you haven't tried - yet you keep thinking you've "tried everything". Everyone here who has had results got them by using the approach I just suggested.
I used the word adulterer because that is what you are at the moment. I’m not trying to guilt you I am stating a fact. And if you love your wife as you profess you are doing the most hateful thing you can do to a spouse. Some people relate that their spouses' adultery hurt them more than the death of their child, or rape. I know not all people feel this way. I'm sure we can all find outliers if we are looking for justification.
I'm not really trying to bust your chops; it is just that you are playing a very heavy game here. You are messing with the lives of a lot of people. You are behaving recklessly. Even if you are using protection, you can still get VD. You can still get someone pregnant. And no matter how casual you think the sex is it probably means something different to your partners. At the risk of using generalizations, it is my experience that most women will not have sex with a man without an emotional connection. Sure there are some that can . . . but I think most women need an emotional bond. And you are treating them merely as a toy for you satisfaction. Yes, perhaps they get something from it too, but you honestly think that is all they really want? Just some rutting?
Know matter how careful you are, someone will eventually see you out sometime. People talk. It will get back to your wife and kids. But your special right? It can't happen to you.
If you are set to live this way then sit your wife down and tell her that her marriage should now be considered open. Tell her that you are, and have been for the last X number of years, having sex with other women. Tell her you will stop if she begins having sex with you. Give her the choice of divorcing you, living in an open marriage, or developing a healthy sexlife in this marriage. You are doing her no favors keeping her in this nod-nod wink-wink marriage. Because you don’t really have a marriage you have a business agreement. You co-parent kids. And you are intimate with women who are not your wife.
I think you both deserve better.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
you also said: "She took every suggestion in this regard to be judgemental, and that I wasn't satisfied with her, and that she didn't measure up. It was impossible for me to put it in a good light."
Here is the deal: she is not measuring up to what you want, and you need to let her know that and just deal with it. She's going to cry. She's going to try to call you a pervert. These are just words. But the truth is that she is NOT measuring up. You seem to want to "not hurt her" by not enforcing this truth to her. Yet...the current situation is going to lead to divorce. Can you see how the little hurt she may feel in having to face the truth will be much easier (and possibly will lead to changing the situation) than the hurt she and you will both feel when you end up divorced because you weren't brave enough to make her face the real truth???
Yeah, DQ, I said pretty much that to my wife about a year ago, and gave her a copy of a highly recommended sexual abuse book for women. She said she'd look at it. A few days later, the book was gone, and I've never seen it since. I suspect she threw it in the trash when I wasn't looking.
She was nice to me in other ways after that, as if to make up for it.
Yeah, I'm listening. Just like I listened to years of therapy. My ears are ringing. I'll keep trying. What do I do next?! Besides actually just filing divorce papers, that is.
You are like talking to a bag of hammers. DQ has told you what to do. So have many others. Here I will give you the words again. Print this out and read it to your wife.
"I will not continue to live in a sexless marriage. What are we going to do about that."
Your next actions depend on her response.
You two can agree to: 1) divorce so you can have sex with other women. 2) remain married for appearences and you get sex on the side, but not in the marriage. 3) actively schedule and have sex X number of times per week with your wife.
I would opt for number 3.
I'm a man . . . But I can change . . . If I have to . . . I guess . . .
"I said pretty much that to my wife about a year ago, and gave her a copy of a highly recommended sexual abuse book for women. She said she'd look at it. A few days later, the book was gone, and I've never seen it since. I suspect she threw it in the trash when I wasn't looking."
So here's what happenend: YOU DROPPED THE BALL.
You can't expect her to read one book and then its all better. You CAN expect her to let the topic die again if YOU never bring it up again. You have to do what I suggested many posts back: You initiate the same conversation again, you listen to her cry, and you ask her for a real answer. Will you join me in fixing this or not, yes or no? If she says she doesn't know, she needs to think, then you say OK, we will talk again in one week and see how you feel. If at that talk one week later she tries to blow you off, you reiterate that you need an answer. You repeat this process over and over until you get her yes or her definite no.
If its yes, come back we'll help you proceed from there.
If its no, then you know that in the future you will likely leave and you tell her that directly when she says her no answer.
YOU DROPPED THE BALL...she is not responsible for you dropping the ball. All LD people want their HD spouses to shut up and forget about it, and if they do (which you DID DO) then the LD spouse believes that it really isn't that big of a deal based on the evidence that YOU DROPPED IT.
You keep talking and don't drop it until you get a definitive answer.
There is no chance for your M to improve while you are screwing other women and lying to your W about it. Try this on for size:
"W, I have been lying to you and betraying you and our M for a long time. I've had a lot of sex outside our marriage with a lot of women. I've been fooling myself that it is OK with you. I've been fooling myself that this is acceptable rather than despicable behavior. Now I'm out of denial. I will no longer treat myself, you, our marriage, or those women others so shamefully. But, I will not live a celibate existence for very long at all. This leaves us three options: (1) have an honest and freely chosen open marriage in which extramarital sex is allowed without deceit or resentment; (2) divorce; (3) include physical intimacy and sex in our M. What are your thoughts about these three options?"
BTW, I seriously doubt you are having sex with women who are experiencing real orgasms. Very few women would orgasm through straight intercourse, especially with a relative stranger. For other types of stimulation, it takes time for sexual partners to learn each others bodies for most women to experience reliable orgasms. So, what you are seeing is a lot of women faking orgasms. There are a lot of f'ed up reasons do this, from self-esteem, to getting bad sex over with quickly, to pumping you up, to trying to feel good by emulating a porn ideal, to simply doing what is expected of them by society. So, you can quit using the excuse of trying to get sexually educated to better please women through casual sexual hook-ups. What you will learn is how to be a selfish user who thinks he is better in bed than he is. And surely that is not good for anyone.
You are like talking to a bag of hammers. DQ has told you what to do. So have many others. Here I will give you the words again. Print this out and read it to your wife.
I got it. And I'm not trying to be a bag of hammers here, but it boils down to the details of how you execute that. I have said exactly that to my wife on several occasions, and her response is better than the smoothest politician. Something like, "I understand how you feel about it, and I'll consider it." If I later ask, what is her decision, she says she needs more time, and says that she doesn't want divorce. If I really press the issue, she comes up with relatively trivial complaints about me, like something I said a few days before upset her, and that otherwise she'd actually consider having sex with me. Which I know by years of this pattern is just BS. But if I claim that's BS, then I'm a jerk for not believing her, and she certainly wouldn't want to have sex with me while I behave like a jerk. You get the picture, I'm sure, and I'm not claiming this is unusual for an SSM. But I'm not sure how to extricate myself from that flypaper without actually just declaring OK, enough of this, I'm going ahead and filing for divorce, and will stop the process ONLY if you come up with an believable response or a more concrete promise. Is that what it takes? I hate doing that, and she knows it. Because it means I would actually have to go through with it, and that it would be a likely possibility.
I guess that's what you're saying. And I hate dropping that nuke. If you call that being a coward, I'll admit it. That's a tough one.
SSM: W, I have been lying to you and betraying you and our M for a long time. I've had a lot of sex outside our marriage with a lot of women. I've been fooling myself that it is OK with you. I've been fooling myself that this is acceptable rather than despicable behavior. Now I'm out of denial. I will no longer treat myself, you, our marriage, our children, or those women others so shamefully. But, I will not live a celibate existence for very long at all. This leaves us three options: (1) have an honest and freely chosen open marriage in which extramarital sex is allowed without deceit or resentment; (2) divorce; (3) include physical intimacy and sex in our M. What are your thoughts about these three options?
W: I'll consider what you've said.
SSM: That will be fine. In one week if you have not come back to me with your thoughts, I will start pursuing divorce, as it is the only option I can pursue alone.
W: Is that a threat? An ultimatum?
SSM: My boundary is that I will not live a celibate life. I am taking steps so that I can live my non-celibate life with integrity. I'd like you to be my partner in that, but if you choose not to be, I will accept that.
