After my H confessed his EA I spent a day in bed crying, reflecting on how dissatisfied I was with the person I'd become. The next day I got up determined to become the woman I wanted to be, whether or not our marriage survived. It was the hardest and most agonizingly painful time in my life, yet I'm grateful that I was given a chance to turn my life (and our M) around.
A pretty inspiring story. Congratulations on such a major accomplishment.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I can tell you that, as a woman who'd been abused as a child, I didn't have an orgasm during vaginal intercourse until I forgave my abuser--after that suddenly I seemed to "own" my body, and it became possible.
But you did have orgasms by other means before that time?
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What moved me from that position? My H, during the course of a MLC depression, finally moved on to an emotional affair with a co-worker, which made him question whether he should leave the marriage. THAT betrayal forced me to examine whether I was happy with the marriage I had, my sex life, with letting my abuser change my view of myself--as in, I had to take responsibility for turning myself into a victim.
In retrospect, if your husband had first asked you for a divorce, and then had the relationship with that same person, do you think it would have had the same effect on you? And had he wanted to come back to you, would you have taken him back?
I'm not trying to be cynical here. One thing I've learned on this forum is that a lot of people feel strongly about the "ethical" aspect of marriage, and so I would like to know how this ethical approach might have worked for you. Is it possible that you would have come to your realization and solution after he had told you he was filing for divorce, but before he actually did? Would you have intervened and asked him to stop the divorce so that you could make an effort to help save your relationship? And would have you been sufficiently motived by the knowledge only of his intention to divorce? Or would it have required the greater pain and soul-searching of a real emotional affair to make you change?
I'm sure that it did not escape him that whatever he was doing might also have the effect of shaking you up enough to do something? Or it might be kind of a strategic move with a double purpose, so to speak. If you want him back, you'll eagerly reach out to save the marriage. And if you don't want him back, well then he's already got somebody new.
Yes, I could have orgasms "by other means." Do you know whether that is true of your W?
I think that if my H had said he wanted a divorce (even without then moving on to a new relationship), it would have had the same effect. It was like a lighting bolt to the head, the realization that our relationship had reached a tipping point where if I did not take immediate action, it would certainly end--indeed it was possibly too late already. In that same flash I recognized that I did still love him and that we COULD have a complete marriage. I was ready to shake off all the "victim" trappings of having been abused.
I don't believe my H consciously planned to shake me up--he was too depressed at the time. However, finding someone new signalled that, deep inside, he knew he needed more from a relationship, and had given up on ours.
It's hard to answer your "would you--?" questions because they are only theoretical. I believe that the knowledge that my H was ready to move on, whatever form it took, would have been enough to jolt me out of my apathy. And I want to stress that, although I was in such agony at the thought of him being ready to desert me, stop loving me, turn to someone else, etc, that I couldn't stop pacing for days and quickly lost 30 lbs, somewhere inside I knew that it was good that I was FEELING again, and that I hadn't been so alive for years.
Cyrena, I looked at your posts and it doesn't look like there's really a thread that's specifically about your situation, what you went through and how you got through it. I think that would be really valuable if you wouldn't mind writing about it.
Yes, I could have orgasms "by other means." Do you know whether that is true of your W?
She's never had one. She never let me try giving her one. And she's never allowed any discussion about it.
I backed off on that topic early in our marriage. I was following the advice that it was not wise for a man to pressure a woman to have an orgasm. I figured that her pleasure was her choice, and I should just be happy I was at least having my own mind-blowing orgasms.
Then when my marriage went SSM I tried bringing up this topic, thinking it was a part of the problem (her enjoyment). She totally refused to talk about it, and it just added to the distance between us.
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I think that if my H had said he wanted a divorce (even without then moving on to a new relationship), it would have had the same effect.
Well, that's interesting to hear because I have done that much. And my wife said she didn't want a divorce. Which sounds like what you might have said. And we're still in an SSM.
Furthermore, people on this forum are suggesting that the reason I failed to make an impression is because it wasn't enough to just say I want a divorce.
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It's hard to answer your "would you--?" questions because they are only theoretical.
And, clearly, what worked for you might not work for my wife, etc. No easy answers.
So your wife has also never experienced an orgasm by herself either?
I agree that it's not enough to just say you want a divorce--my H and I may well both have tossed that out during arguments. I've forgotten how often or when that happened because it was not backed up with action or even true intent. It was at that point a childish cry for attention, because it's certainly true that neither of us was happy with our stagnant M for some time. However, had my H (or I) ever reached the point where one of us stated that we were DONE with the current state of our M and were committed to leaving TOMORROW unless healthy changes began to be made--and followed through on the threat--it would have triggered change. There's a huge (and to the spouse, quite obvious) difference between using the word divorce as an idle threat, and having reached one's threshold of tolerance so that one cannnot live another second without change.
Clearly, what worked for me might not work for your wife. However, you will find a common theme on this board (as well as with MLC spouses, left-behind spouses, abused spouses), that when a person finally finds the guts to say, "You know, our marriage is hurting me, and I no longer think I deserve to diminish myself in order to stay in it. I choose to become healthy and whole; I recognize that I don't NEED you to love myself, and while I'd like to have you in my life I'll be fine without you" --that's the only point when marriages can turn around.
...you will find a common theme on this board (as well as with MLC spouses, left-behind spouses, abused spouses), that when a person finally finds the guts to say, "You know, our marriage is hurting me, and I no longer think I deserve to diminish myself in order to stay in it. I choose to become healthy and whole; I recognize that I don't NEED you to love myself, and while I'd like to have you in my life I'll be fine without you" --that's the only point when marriages can turn around.
Well spoken, Cyrena.
I do know of three examples; Kettricken, LuckyGirl, SillyOldBear, and perhaps Jayce (to make four); where the marital "nuclear option" did not have to be put on the table in earnest, in order to bring about a major shift and commitment to change in a 'stuck' spouse. However, these are the exceptions to the norm. In ALL cases, however, the attitude and mental state that you describe above IS required: "I'm leaving on a journey (of progression). You are welcome to join me, but I will not remain stuck here any longer."
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
We'd had enough conversations where I assured her that nothing could ever make me leave that, when I sat her down and took my time, explained my reasons and told her that yes, I was miserable enough to leave, I don't think she ever doubted it. I don't know if it ever occurred to her after that point that I might not be serious. If it did, she didn't show it. But we had never threatened divorce in anger, either . . . neither of us had admitted that we would ever leave the other until that day, although she had confessed that she thought I might leave before.
If you are the LD or ND person married to an HD spouse, what is your motivation for preserving the marriage when it's been SSM for a long time and the lack of sex has not bothered you? If your HD partner suggests divorce, but also makes it clear that he/she wants to remain a good friend and a cooperative parent to your kids, what are you afraid of, or what is it you want to keep? Is it the possibility of a future sexual relationship? Is it just the companionship of living together? Is it the public embarrassment of being "dumped" and having everyone wonder why you "couldn't keep your spouse interested"? Is it the jealousy of giving your partner up to someone else? Or is it just a general fear and uncertainty about the influence a new partner of your ex will have over your ex and your kids?
If you're bothered by the image of your ex having passionate sex with a new person, why would you feel that way if you didn't want to have sex with your partner in the first place? As one poster here mentioned, if sex didn't matter to you, why would it matter to you that your ex was having it with someone else?
Or is the premise wrong? Does the lack of sex bother you in the sense that you know you SHOULD want sex, but you know you don't?
It's probably a combination of these things, and other things I can't think of. A mix of your own fears and insecurities, and not just because of your love for your partner? If you truly only loved your partner in an altruistic way, it seems you might even be happy to have them find someone who appreciates them sexually, no?
So your wife has also never experienced an orgasm by herself either?
Exactly.
If I even try to bring up the topic, it's like I'm a pervert who should know better because she's made it clear she doesn't like talking about it. So by bringing it up, she knows that I know it's going to upset her. In which case, the only reason for me to bring it up is because I must be wanting to upset her. Which, of course, is the last thing she needs if she's going to try to feel sexual. The logic is airtight from her point of view. Frozen, vacuum-packed and Ziploc'ed.
And if I even try to touch her in a place most women would need to be touched to achieve an orgasm, even if it's during making love, same response -- I'm a pervert or something.
Sure, I knew this wasn't quite normal early in our marriage, but we were young and I thought for sure she'd get over this, as I bought into this phony wisdom about how virtually all women hit their sexual peak later in life when they've become more comfortable with their bodies, etc. Dumbest piece of advice ever as it applied to our marriage. It would have been much better to nip that problem in the bud long ago and had her explore the issues with a therapist when she was much more open-minded and motivated to improving our marriage.
