Most victims of molestation experience sexual pleasure while being molested. This becomes increasingly difficult to live with as one grows up and gets a better grip of what was going on. If this is the case with your W, then being sexually stimulated and experiencing sexual pleasure could be repulsive because they are retraumatizing.
That helps me understand it a little better, but doesn't bring me any closer to a solution. It validates her excuses, but that's not a solution. It isn't my understanding that's the problem. It's getting her to overcome it. And I'm not sure that understanding this on her part, or even a lot of therapy about it, is guraanteed to make her interestedin sex. Apparently, she's already been through therapy about all this. But what if that therapy didn't "make you want sex" after many years? Then what??
What bothers me about all the advice I've been given about sexual sexual abuse is the dubious "assumption" or "script" that after therapy, she will be all new and shiny and want sex. And that is apparently not the case for her. And so then I get the advice all over again that she needs therapy for the abuse. If I say she's been through that, all I get in reply is, I must be wrong, or we haven't tried hard enough. Yeah, thanks, as if I couldn't think of that myself.
I know that people like to be optimistic, but I think in cases like this, the caveat needs to be "some people will never want sex after therapy for abuse, and the reason might be that it's too much for them to overcome, or it could be another reason we will never understand". That realistic assessment from the get-go might have resulted in more realistic expectations.
The problem with overly optimistic advice for spouses of LD people is that failure to make the LD person want sex logically reflects as a failure of effort on the part of the HD spouse. A more honest assessment would add the caveat that the ND or LD person may not become more sexual, no matter how much positive effort is applied by both people.
The problem with overly optimistic advice for spouses of LD people is that failure to make the LD person want sex logically reflects as a failure of effort on the part of the HD spouse. A more honest assessment would add the caveat that the ND or LD person may not become more sexual, no matter how much positive effort is applied by both people.
You have a number of profound observations. You are probably right that some people may not be able to either be cured or some may not "want/embrace" what is required to forgive and change.
I have been reading a new book that at first I didn't like, but that has a much different approach to adult marital relationships. It is growing on me as I think more about it. It is the Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. What I like and don't like (at the same time) is the concept that couples will always have a different desire levels and that getting the LD partner to increase their desire is not the right approach.
It points out that some couples have LD and HD in regard to sex, other couples have LD and HD in regards to spending money, and still other couples have LD and HD in regards to having a baby. It goes on to embrace the struggle between two people as a wonderful growth and learning experience that teaches each of us how to be a better person and who we are.
It is quite thought provoking. As the HD partner in a SSM, I kind of like the SSM approach and that of other sex therapy programs (i.e. raising the LD partners sex drive). This alternate approach by David Schnarch is interesting and causing me to do some serious thinking.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I'm curious--has your wife actually had sex therapy for the abuse? In my case I had therapy which worked with self-esteem, body issues, dealing with memories, etc, but sex therapy was never a part of it, so I was never challenged to think about it.
I don't in any way think you've failed to "make your spouse want sex." Your spouse (for obvious reasons) has failed herself there. To get beyond that she would need to stop thinking of herself as a victim; whether or not she can do that is her choice. You cannot MAKE your wife be any particular way: no one can. However, you are failing yourself (and your M) if you lump yourself in as a victim of your W's LD and use it as an excuse to avoid open communication, an exploration of whether you require a relationship which is both physical and emotional, etc.
I heartily second Y at H's recommentdation of Passionate Marriage (which came up a bit earlier in your thread). It's not just about how to increase passion, it also deals with learning not to be "an emotional Siamese twin" in a stuck M.
[quote=ssmguy] I have been reading a new book that at first I didn't like, but that has a much different approach to adult marital relationships. It is growing on me as I think more about it. It is the Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch. What I like and don't like (at the same time) is the concept that couples will always have a different desire levels and that getting the LD partner to increase their desire is not the right approach.
In my case, that would translate to, "getting the ND partner to increase their desire is not the right approach". Well, then, I'm not sure I'm interested in what his approach is! Is it that I'm supposed to decrease my desire level? Or are we supposed to have fun together doing things besides sex? Which is what we've been doing for the last 10 years and it hasn't changed the sexual stalement one iota.
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It points out that some couples have LD and HD in regard to sex, other couples have LD and HD in regards to spending money, and still other couples have LD and HD in regards to having a baby. It goes on to embrace the struggle between two people as a wonderful growth and learning experience that teaches each of us how to be a better person and who we are.
Well fine, I have been embracing the struggle for 10+ years, and it has been a wonderful growth and learning experience, but it has resulted in NO SEX.
The difference with being LD and HD in other areas, like playing tennis, is that I can get another tennis partner without the moral majority in the USA branding me with a scarlet "A". They won't claim that having another tennis partner will hurt my kids and compromise my integrity. So, no, I don't see that LD/HD in other areas as quite the same thing, at least as far as what others will think of me.
I'm curious--has your wife actually had sex therapy for the abuse?
Yes, she has had lenghty individual therapy with a highly qualified psychoanalyst, and also individual and couples sex therapy with me.
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However, you are failing yourself (and your M) if you lump yourself in as a victim of your W's LD and use it as an excuse to avoid open communication, an exploration of whether you require a relationship which is both physical and emotional, etc.
Avoiding open communication wasn't one of my problems. It was insisting on open communication TOO MUCH that was a problem. She felt "unsafe" and "harrassed" by my constant effort to confront the issues head-on. And so I had to back off. Sure, you could say she's got an airtight set of excuses. And I'd agree.
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I heartily second Y at H's recommentdation of Passionate Marriage (which came up a bit earlier in your thread). It's not just about how to increase passion, it also deals with learning not to be "an emotional Siamese twin" in a stuck M.
I purchased the book many years ago, but read only parts of it. If you have any particular chapters in mind, let me know.
And her reason for ending her sessions with the eminent therapist was...?
I wouldn't actually recommend reading PM unless you reach a point where you feel the compelling need to CHANGE your life. At the moment, I think, you're indicating that you've tried everything, that your wife has painted you into a corner and you have no choice except to seek sex outside M. If you reach a breaking point where you can no longer tolerate your compromises, that would be the time to reach for PM.
I don't know much about the circumstances of her individual therapy. In the couples therapy, she ended it because she found it too stressful.
Changing my life? Like finding a new partner? I don't think I'd need PM for that. Again, we're into this territory where the assumption seems to be that IF ONLY I change my life in just the right fine-tuned and perfect way, it will turn her around. Given what we've been through, I doubt it.
...In my case, that would translate to, "getting the ND partner to increase their desire is not the right approach". Well, then, I'm not sure I'm interested in what his approach is! Is it that I'm supposed to decrease my desire level? Or are we supposed to have fun together doing things besides sex? Which is what we've been doing for the last 10 years and it hasn't changed the sexual stalement one iota.
...Well fine, I have been embracing the struggle for 10+ years, and it has been a wonderful growth and learning experience, but it has resulted in NO SEX....
If I have not finished the PM book yet and so I don't feel qualified to explain it. As you point out there are elements that I too find hard to believe.
What I think that PM tries to do is view sex differently and as a way of gaining connection between a couple and yet embrace the basic conflict that two people have within a marriage. The author is also trained as a sex therapist and believes deeply that passionate sex within a committed relationship is critical for a marriage.
I haven't finished the PM book, but elements are interesting. While the LD or ND partner may not want sex, the PM is designed to cause them to view themselves and their sexuality differently and proposes exercises that stretch the LD/ND partner to feel uncomfortable and embrace that uncomfortableness in doing new things until they realize that what they just did, wasn't so evil/hurtful.
I am an engineer by training. As such, I know that there are many ways, not just one way, to solve most problems. I am struggling to learn about as many different ways to improve my SSM in the hopes that one of them will inspire me to figure out how to connect with my wife and move the relationship forward. I also know that some problems just can't be solved with the resources or time available.
My heart goes out to you. Good luck.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
No, I'm not promising that if you "change your life in just the right fine-tuned and perfect way it will turn her around." You CAN'T, after all, change her. What I've been trying to say is that if you should change your mindset, stop viewing yourself as a victim and want to begin living with integrity again--if you came to a place where you were ready to offer her the option of EITHER remaining stuck without you OR exploring a mutually satisfying M with you--if you were ready to grow as a sexual AND emotional being, only THEN would PM have something to offer you.
No, you wouldn't need PM merely to "find a new partner." It's more about, as Y at H points out, discovering new dimensions to sexuality (and the self).
No, you wouldn't need PM merely to "find a new partner." It's more about, as Y at H points out, discovering new dimensions to sexuality (and the self).
I think I disagree, that is if SSM wants the possibility of a long-term sexually satisfying R with anyone. SSM needs a big shift in his approach to his life and Rs to have that with anyone.
For one-night-stands, hookers, and brief BF-GF Rs, sure, he doesn't need anything like PM. Otherwise...
