SSMGuy, your analogy is a useful one. It's hard for a man who wants sex, especially after years of longing and desperation, to really, truly put himself in the shoes of someone who just doesn't feel the desire. I know I always thought, and later said, "If it means everything to me, and nothing to you, then I don't see why you haven't tried to just go through the motions and get it over with."
Of course, the truth is that going through the motions to get it over with can help you get started, but it's not a solution, because we are not going to be satisfied with just that for long. And of course, as you describe, sex is messy and weird from a completely objective point of view.
One caution, though: your analogy does miss one important positive and one important negative factor in most SS marriages.
On the positive side, it would be more accurate if your hypothetical husband used to enjoy the mud baths with his wife, and the mud baths were a big part of the reason they got together in the first place. To make the analogy to sex better, he would have to have fond memories of those old days in the mud bath, even if he currently feels no desire to get into one. The LD partner usually has a sexual past with the HD partner that's different than their current situation.
On the negative side, there would also have to be overwhelming societal pressure to have a satisfying mud life. Our hero, who has lost his desire to squish in the mud with his wife, should have to hear about the joys of the mud baths from TV, movies, radio, print, advertising . . . there should be shelves full of self-help books purporting to teach people how to make their mud lives more satisfying or make their mud-squishing more fulfilling for the others in the mud.
And there should certainly be a constant stream of myths and "conventional wisdom" about mud and mud baths that confuse the hell out of everyone involved.
Now I have come to realize that I was waiting for my wife to keep her promise to me and that waiting patiently isn't going to result in my getting what I need. I realize that there must be things that I am not giving her that she needs or that there must be past pain I have caused her that has helped to create the situation we are in.
I don't know how long that took, but in terms of your arrival on the forum, you're months ahead of me.
I know that when we were dating and when we were first married that sex was something my wife seemed to enjoy. I also know that she use to enjoy a good orgasm in the not too distant past, like earlier this year and last year.
You read the SSM book, right? This was VERY important for my marriage. My wife, like a lot of women, thought that she should first be overwhelmed with desire, and THEN get stimulated. I didn't understand that at all. I loved the idea of being stimulated and brought to a state of arousal at a time when I hadn't been thinking of sex. But to her, that was pointless and weird. Several times she literally stopped me from touching her because "If you do that, you're going to make me want to have sex, and I don't feel like doing that tonight." I found that utterly baffling, of course, but it made some kind of sense to her. She could relent one night, have a great time, be brought to a literal screaming orgasm, and the next day nothing had changed. I would remind her of the last time we made love and ask her if she enjoyed it. The memory would flush her cheeks and she would gush about how great it was . . . . but she didn't want to do it again. Some of those nights I just wanted to hit myself in the head with a brick in frustration. It didn't even seem possible.
When she read the SSM book, she admitted that maybe she needed to give me more of a chance. One suggestion in the book is to set a time. Ask her to give you, say, five minutes and then decide if she wants to stop or go on. If she accepts this, it leads her to "act as if" and allow you to stimulate her . . . and then she finds that her desire is not gone after all.
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So, while there may be nothing wrong with "not wanting sex," I know that it is not a foreign concept to my wife. I also know that physical touching is something she currently says she enjoys, but is something she doesn't want to give me at the moment (probably for a good reason to my wife involving something I did or didn't do).
Did she say that? I mean, is that her phrasing, that physical touch is something she gives you, and she's withholding it from you? I ask because that's the way the HD partner usually perceives the issue, but the LD person usually doesn't see it that way. You can read my description above and see how I reasoned (logically) that there was no way she could be telling the truth both about how much she enjoyed sex when she was having it with me and how she never wanted to do it again. How could a person enjoy massive amounts of pleasure and love and then treat it like torture? But she did. Rather than taking her at face value and trying to figure out the difference in our thinking, I used logic from my point of view and decided that I was being punished for something.
This is a problem even if she's really doing it, though. You seem to be familiar with No More Mr. Nice Guy, so I'm sure you've at least read about the pitfalls of having a marriage where the wife feels like she has to lead all the time and make every decision--as if she's caring for her husband like one of the children. You and I might look at it as being "kind" or "sensitive," but women have their own set of rules.
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I am trying with my sexual sabbatical to avoid pushing my wife to have sex(my way of trying to "be kinder"). I didn't suggest sharing or talking about the books I was reading on relationships with her, that was her suggestion to me. I think I understand what you are trying to say about pushing, as I hated piano lessons as well.
You're doing the right thing, and it's great that she volunteered to read the books. But notice why she did that? You didn't push her or nag her, you set an example that she noticed and wanted to join. You led. That's the way to get things done. From your posts, I'm guessing you know what it feels like to be nagged and henpecked. I never attempted the long sabbatical Glover recommends. I did about a month more to clear the slate with my wife and stop the rejection/depression cycle than anything else. Just remember, you're not doing it as a favor to her! It's not something you do to be kind to someone, it's something you do to simplify the work you're doing by taking all the messy feelings that surround sex further out of the equation for awhile.
As hard as it is, you have to stop thinking of everything in terms of how it serves your wife. I struggle with this. The most important thing is that, no matter what, if you're committed to five months, you do five months. Don't let anyone, including your wife, talk you into compromising what you decided was the right thing to do. Honestly, my wife didn't even notice the sabbatical until it was almost over. My thread is here somewhere . . . here it is. You might find it interesting; there are some other posters like Bagheera and Strong & Alive who really helped me--although I didn't use everything they had to say.
You read the SSM book, right? This was VERY important for my marriage. My wife, like a lot of women, thought that she should first be overwhelmed with desire, and THEN get stimulated. I didn't understand that at all. I loved the idea of being stimulated and brought to a state of arousal at a time when I hadn't been thinking of sex. But to her, that was pointless and weird. Several times she literally stopped me from touching her because "If you do that, you're going to make me want to have sex, and I don't feel like doing that tonight." I found that utterly baffling, of course, but it made some kind of sense to her.
I have read the book and so many others in the past month that my head is swiming with ideas and thoughts. The reading has helped a lot.
Your example above, however, has put what I knew and read into a whole new context. The idea of stopping something that feels good because it will make her want to have sex, but she might not want that outcome, is baffling to me, but probably logical to a woman. Thank you for this insight.
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Re: denial of touching; Did she say that? I mean, is that her phrasing, that physical touch is something she gives you, and she's withholding it from you? I ask because that's the way the HD partner usually perceives the issue, but the LD person usually doesn't see it that way.)
You are correct, she didn't use those words. They were my feelings and she probably doesn't see it that way. Although, she is very aware that her not touching me is a big deal to me. I understand that she is not trying to punish me or actively hurt me. It is just maddening that she says she likes to be touched so much (back rubs, foot rubs, hugs, etc.) but she doesn't seem to every touch me. This could be part of the "Good Girls Don't" conditioning she grew up with. If so, it is something we will both need to work on dealing with.
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You seem to be familiar with No More Mr. Nice Guy, so I'm sure you've at least read about the pitfalls of having a marriage where the wife feels like she has to lead all the time and make every decision--as if she's caring for her husband like one of the children. You and I might look at it as being "kind" or "sensitive," but women have their own set of rules..
Actually your reference to that book in an earlier post is the first I had heard of it. I ordered the book (and some others today). Your comments about "manning up" and "leading" are interesting. I took the time to read the entire 13 or so pages of comments in the link you provided and that has given me some real hope. Again the comments about "Good Girls Don't" was eye opening and being more of an Alpha-male focused on doing what I want to do were surprising. I may have become a weak doormat in her eyes trying to be a "nice guy."
Recently I have started to do things for myself and now I am understanding that it may also make me more desirable to my wife as well. That is a nice bonus for putting myself first. Always in the past I had tried to put her first.
The "Nice Guy thing" may have been one of my contributions to our marriage problem. When we first started dating, I was probably a "dangerous bad boy" in her eyes: rough job to help support myself through college and a motorcycle. When we were first married, I took karate and played sports. Before we had kids I did scuba diving, climbed mountains and made her go backpacking in wilderness areas.
I think that I will accelerate my focus on putting my interest first for the remaining month of my sexual sabbatical. I have a male friend who I should go snow skiing with and some hobbies that I have neglected for many years, although my knees will prevent me from doing some things.
Thank you again for the insights. I have more things to study and try and more importantly I also now have more hope.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I just looked at one of my old threads, and according to the dates there it's actually only been about a year and a half since I read the book and started posting here.
You read the SSM book, right? This was VERY important for my marriage. My wife, like a lot of women, thought that she should first be overwhelmed with desire, and THEN get stimulated. I didn't understand that at all. I loved the idea of being stimulated and brought to a state of arousal at a time when I hadn't been thinking of sex. But to her, that was pointless and weird. Several times she literally stopped me from touching her because "If you do that, you're going to make me want to have sex, and I don't feel like doing that tonight." I found that utterly baffling, of course, but it made some kind of sense to her. She could relent one night, have a great time, be brought to a literal screaming orgasm, and the next day nothing had changed. I would remind her of the last time we made love and ask her if she enjoyed it. The memory would flush her cheeks and she would gush about how great it was . . . . but she didn't want to do it again. Some of those nights I just wanted to hit myself in the head with a brick in frustration. It didn't even seem possible.
I had a male friend long ago who had just come out of the closet and was pursuing his new lifestyle after dating women for a brief time. He said that one thing he much preferred about men is that they are much easier to understand sexually. He said he was utterly frustrated by the women he dated. It was too complicated to figure out when, if, and how they wanted to be sexual. Too much rigamarole and drama.
I replied that I understood what he's saying, and added that, unfortunately, I don't find men sexually interesting so I'm stuck with women.
There are plenty of couples where both spouses want not sex, and they're happy.
Really? Where are these happy sexless couples?
I talk to a lot of women about relationships and sex and I've yet to come across one who admits to a happily sexless marriage .....
I've seen this briefly mentioned in several of the many books on sex and relationships I've read. The thing is, many of these couples will never go to therapy, as they don't see it as a problem. They tend to be older couples.
I've also heard that a small percentage of people are truly asexual. Their common experience seems to be that they never understood what all the excitement and giggling about the opposite sex was about in their early teens. It's relatively rare, but some of these people find each other and get married for companionship and sometimes even kids. But again, you don't find many of these people going to therapy for low sex drive, unless dragged their after marrying a partner who likes sex.
Not sure if such couples will easily admit to being "happily sexless", just like people don't generally like to admit to being happy about something that you're not supposed to be happy about.
I thought I could use a little therapy today, so I decided to write an update of my situation.
A while back, my wife noticed that I had been reading relationship books, commented on it and asked if she should read them and then we could talk about them. (My heart jumped and I was thrilled!) I told her that I would like that. I gave her four books that I had found most helpful and said we could talk about them during the next weekend. The weekend came and she said she hadn't read them, so I said that was OK, we could talk about them the next Saturday, which was today.
Another thing I did about a month ago was to tell her that I would not under any circumstances have sex with her for two months. This was because she has told me for decades that she would touch me more except that whenever she touches me it always leads to me wanting to have sex with her and so it is my fault that she doesn't touch me.
I have been recording a daily journal of how I touch her or things I do for during the day and any "signs of affection" she expresses toward me. I have noticed and documented a significant increase in her showing signs of affection. She will put her foot against my leg at night in bed. She will put a hand against me on my arm. She will even give me a very chaste peck on the cheek, when I leave for work and she leaves for her job. On average she has made one expression of affection every other day. This is not the "touching" I had hoped for or expected, but it is an improvement and a source of hope for me. I still want to be touched passionately by a woman who loves me and expresses physical love for me.
Today came and I sat down to talk with my wife about the books. She was hesitant to talk, so I started off by summarizing my thoughts on the first book I had given her (Hold me Tight by Dr Sue Johnson) that really resonated with me. I then asked her what her thoughts were about the book. She told me she hadn't read it.
I was shocked, but decided that I would not allow that to suck me into a fight with her. I then summarize what I got out of the second book I gave her to read, which was the SSM book. I then asked her what she thought of the book. She said she hadn't read it. In a very calm measured way I asked her if she had read any of the books I had given her. She said that yes she had read one of the books.
She then went on to provide a series of excuses as to why she hadn't had time over the past couple of weeks to read the other books and how it was such an accomplishment for her to finish just one of them. I reminded her that it was her suggestion and not mine that we discuss the books I found significant. I also pointed out a number of specific times that I had come home to find her reading romance novels so she obviously had time for some reading, but not the reading she had offered to do for me.
At this point rather than explained that it was a mistake for her to have offered to read the books I gave her, she explained how reading such things might work for me, she had to talk about things as opposed to reading about things. She explained how reading these books was a waste of time for her.
Rather than fight with her I asked her to tell me what she got out of the book she had read. She talked about something that was within the first two chapters of the book. Rather that ask a question about something in the end of the book, I decided to ask her questions about what she had said so as to find out why she thought that was significant to our relationship. She came up with some reasons that actually sounded pretty interesting and she explained how helpful this would have been earlier in our relationship. I agreed with her, but said I want to focus on our present and future relationship.
I then summarized the parts of two other books (one of which was No More Mr. Nice Guy) that I found very helpful in understanding our relationship. I told her that these books weren't ones I had given her yet. I told her how I was going to work on my happiness and satisfaction and be true to myself. I told her that I had goals and plans for myself next year to make that happen.
She asked me about my goals. I explain what my weight loss goals and targets were for various months of next year. I also explained some of the fitness goals and races I had in mind for next year. I also outlined some of the hobbies and things I intended to take up again next year. I also said I had some goals for our relationship. That got her attention! She asked what they were. I told her that my first goal, if she was going to be an active partner in helping fix our relationship, was to possibly sign us up for a couples workshop in mid-February of next year. I explained who ran the workshop, what I knew about the content and why I thought it could help us. She got uncomfortable and said that February might be too soon. I decided not to respond and change the subject.
I told her I might or might not share future books with her. I then insisted that she keep her word on reading the books I had given her, but instead I told which two books (the Five Languages of Love-Chapman and SSM) I expected her to read. These were books that I had already discussed and I explained how significant they were to me in helping me understand our relationship. I told her that I expected her to keep her word and that we would discuss them next weekend.
We then discussed our relationship. I reminded her that even as important as sex was to me, I had stopped having sex with her because of how it had become to painful for me, due to her rejection of me. She then cried and we discussed some other aspects of our relationship. She said that the only thing she has failed at in life was being sexual with me. She said she has tried and that it is a great source of shame for her.
Rather than being sucked into feeling sorry for her, I explained that for me to be happy in this marriage, it needed to contain an active sexual component. I relayed some of the sexual experience in our past that I found the most memorable. I said that she wasn't a failure if she could do those things. She then explained that whatever she did was never enough for me.
I also indicated how (by using the terms of some of the books I wanted her to read) that I had obviously hurt her in the past and that I understood that I can only change myself. I also said that I am changing and intend to change even more to put myself first and to become a more happy and complete person. I told her I expect us to work as a team to help fix our Relationship and from my standpoint she didn't keep up her part. We both cried, but felt some progress was made.
I am once again reminded that there is a huge difference between words and actions. She has been giving me words, but not delivering on the actions. I will try to be positive and remain optimistic.
While I felt that I connected with her emotionally and heard some understanding of my feelings from her based on our discussions, I am very disappointed and frustrated. I had hoped for a lot more progress in recognizing and defining the problems I see in our our relationship. I even had expected to have her explain some problems I wasn't aware of.
I still have hope for our relationship, but a lot less than yesterday.
I am now going to redouble my efforts to get a life and make myself happy and whole. If she can change and be part of that life, it will make me very happy. I will make every effort to work with her and include her in my change. I will also work to try various things to improve our relationship. If she can change and choose to participate that would be great. If not, so be it.
Last edited by Young at Heart; 12/13/0907:17 AM.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
You're walking the tightrope between being an assertive (I hate saying "integrated man," but I guess that's what I mean) man and a jerk, and it's not easy. Handing a man who's upset and scared for his marriage and resenting his wife a manual that says he should think of himself more often leads to him either trying out being a completely selfish jerk for awhile, or being so afraid that he will, that he can't bring himself to stop being a doormat. You're doing the hard part very well.
Just remember what you said about actions and words. Right now, she's hearing your words, and she's starting to come around a little. You have concrete goals to put into action, and when she sees your actions, it'll be hard for her to justify trying to freeze the marriage where it is. If she's going to make significant changes, that will come after she sees your good intentions put into action. That takes time.
Keep doing what you're doing. It's great that you modified your request to focus on the two books that mattered the most to you, and it's also great that you insisted that she live up to her promise. It's easy to listen to a woman's excuses, seethe in private, and complain to us about them. But it's hard to sit in front of her, maybe while she has tears running down her face, and tell her that you won't accept less.
Getting her to read these books is not going to be easy or quick. Left to herself, she would continue to insist that anything that's wrong in your marriage has to do with too much thinking about sex, not too little. She's only reading these books, in the final analysis, because she wants to please you. She probably doesn't realize yet that they may be important for her as an individual.
