I quite agree--sorry I expressed that badly. SSMG asks, "Changing my life? Like finding a new partner?" as though changing the trappings of his surroundings was as much change as he could envision. In that case PM would be no use to him, because he wouldn't be changing or challenging his current mindset.
SSMG--you say your wife found therapy too stressful. It's true that self-confrontation and change are the most agonizing, gut-wrenching experience. However, I think if you read any of the "success stories" on this site, you'll find that, despite the awful circumstances which precipitated change, NO ONE regrets having taken the opportunity to grow.
What I've been trying to say is that if you should change your mindset, stop viewing yourself as a victim and want to begin living with integrity again--if you came to a place where you were ready to offer her the option of EITHER remaining stuck without you OR exploring a mutually satisfying M with you--if you were ready to grow as a sexual AND emotional being, only THEN would PM have something to offer you.
I don't think I view myself as a victim. Now that's not to say I don't have a problem to deal with. There must be room for me to admit to having to deal with a problem without being labeled a victim. I have CHOSEN to remain in this marriage and keep trying. The fact that I haven't succeeded, and that I haven't divorced, doesn't automatically make me a victim.
Though I don't have much experience with a deep sexual connection, I'm aware of what I'm missing. Which is why I'm here in spite of having lots of sex (mostly with myself) that's physically very satisfying. This evening, I read major portions of PM, and there isn't much there that isn't already obvious to me. It's certainly not the first such book I've seen -- I've probably read about 30 books on relationships and sex. It's just that large parts of the book are not applicable to my current situation any more than they'd be applicable to someone who didn't have a partner.
Eyes-open sex, for example. That's nothing new to me... I thought of it myself and experienced that a long time ago, without reading a book. I love the feeling of being exposed and vulnerable, and having that connection at that moment. But the capacity for that enjoyment doesn't help my current situation. And having an orgasm with eyes open is a concept that has no applicability to my wife, who not only has never had an orgasm, but at this point won't even try to have sex, let alone an orgasm.
There's also a section in the book about "Audrey" and "Peter", where Audrey is similar to my wife in not liking sex and coming up with all kinds of reasons for not wanting sex. But as I read their case, it became clear that my wife would never be as open about her sexuality as Audrey, who is portrayed as being held back! Which leaves me feeling that my problem is unusually extreme, and not the garden-variety problem portrayed in many of the anecdotes in the PM book.
I have trouble accepting the simple notion that the only way I can stop being a victim is by giving my wife the option of being left alone. Isn't that really just the old "I'm outa here" option that ignores the reality that I have CHOSEN to stay in this marriage because there are many other people involved? I reject out of hand the simplistic self-serving reasoning that, oh, if we aren't having sex, then we are unhappy, and the kids know it, and it's all dysfunctional and they'll grow up being sexless and dysfunctional too. If that were true, the population would have died out many generations ago. My wife and I have a very good friendship -- we went out to a great candlelight dinner with conversation earlier this week. It's just that we didn't go home and have sex afterwards, and took no rainchecks because why take a raincheck for something that will never happen, etc.
SSMG--you say your wife found therapy too stressful. It's true that self-confrontation and change are the most agonizing, gut-wrenching experience. However, I think if you read any of the "success stories" on this site, you'll find that, despite the awful circumstances which precipitated change, NO ONE regrets having taken the opportunity to grow.
I'm well aware of this. And I think my wife is too. But for whatever reason, she has resisted taking that step.
.....My wife and I have a very good friendship -- we went out to a great candlelight dinner with conversation earlier this week. It's just that we didn't go home and have sex afterwards, and took no rainchecks because why take a raincheck for something that will never happen, etc.
That is a very touching description of two people who enjoy each other.
In my mental desperation of my SSM, I have tried to think of ways of making my situation bearable, prior to finding certain books and support on this forum. In particular I have pondered the concept of turning lemons into lemonade. Is there anyway that your wife might be willing to turn "non-sex" into something that you can accept as sex-like?
I couldn't totally figure out anything that would likely work for both my wife and myself, but your statements sparked an idea that I thought I would share and may or may not be totally inappropriate.
What you are describing is a very King Author type of courtly love, all romance and no sex. If your wife views you as her knight, her protector, her emotional companion, but not her sexual partner, maybe she can stretch what she is capable of doing in such a way that doesn't involve intercourse and makes her feel like she is more in complete control of your sexuality.
I have seen some references on this forum to Taken In Hand marriages and looked at their website. The opposite might be a Wife Lead marriage where the husband is in chastity to his key holder wife who he treats as his queen and who provides him with some sexual tension, sexual attention, but not intercourse. While this may not be acceptable to either you or your wife, it is offered as an example of how some people turn non-sex into a sex-like activity that can provide some of the interaction that sex has in a more typical marriage.
Maybe there is some other form of role-playing that you wife could participate in, which would not involve her definition of sex and yet would provide you with a sex-like experience that would allow her to fulfill some of your emotional needs.
For me, I am hoping that couples massage will provide me with some of the deep physical touching I feel that I need from my wife in a way that she can more easily express, as long as she does not feel it is sexual. Because my wife loves to have me give her a massage, I am hoping that she can stretch such that she can give me a non-sexual massage. I see this as something that my wife could do to help meet my physical needs and yet be potentially within her boundaries. If we can have sex again (which is my primary goal), non-sexual couples massage is something she could do or offer to help mitigate the distance between her LD and my HD that would partially fulfill my physical needs.
You have convinced me that you have some aspects of a non-typical marriage that is based on love, respect and friendship and an ability or accommodation to separate sex from love and romance.
I also suspect that you may have already thought of things along this line, but your description sparked a thought.
I have become a great customer of Barnes & Noble and Amazon.com, when it comes to buying self-help and relationship books. You also indicated that you have a large collection of such books as well. I have started another book that I have mixed feeling about, the Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. It talks about how the vast majority of things that couples fight about are unresolvable, but how if the couple can argue in a way that doesn't destroy good feelings and works on repair attempts that de-escalate confrontation, then they can remain friends and married, especially if they provide each other with many more positive experiences than negative experiences. Your description above also reminded me of that part of the book by John Gottman I just started.
Again Good Luck
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
In particular I have pondered the concept of turning lemons into lemonade. Is there anyway that your wife might be willing to turn "non-sex" into something that you can accept as sex-like?
Thanks for a very thoughtful reply!
Indeed, I have done a lot of thinking about how we could come up with a compromise, and we did that for some years, where I would experience release but she was not sexually involved at all. But that only works for me if I can keep thinking of it as just one of many different things we're doing. But after a long time, her complete lack of participation made me feel very "left out" and more of the mindset that I have more and more good sex to make up for. Though I'm currently tolerating the situation, I cannot accept it long term. I know that, and that's why I'm here, and reading and thinking and talking to various people about the situation, including my wife, of course (but in gentle and humorous ways).
So, as for tolerating the differences, and compromising, it was kind of like a rubber band that we stretched, but it was too much, and the rubber band broke -- the differences are just to great. For me, there is no substitute for total and all-out passionate physical sex consisting of lots of foreplay and sex and mind-blowing orgasms, all lasting the better part of an hour, if not more. To my wife, that's way too long to even consider participating in a non-sexual way on her part -- it's just total boredom and "what's the point" kind of activity for her, and total shock that I would want to do it all again within 48 hours, which is about as long as I want to wait for a repeat. So doing a compromise is nothing more than an exercise in tension highlighting our differences. I just can't take seriously the proposition that the ONLY person I can have sex with on this planet, indefinitely, is someone who doesn't want to do any of it.
Now that we have only the kind of King Arthur courtly love, it's much easier because there isn't this constant tension about the sexual compromise we have to deal with in the next 24 hours, which she will try to get out of all the time, even if it's a compromise, and my constant reminding her that it's overdue, and her feeling guilty, etc. etc.
And, like it or not, a component of the lack of tension between us has to do with my being able to get my physical sexual needs met by other means. And if any of you think that's terrible and lamentable, and all that, well, I can tell you it's not cancer. And I know what that's like and it's not even close.
ssmguy, you said: "Though I'm currently tolerating the situation, I cannot accept it long term. I know that, and that's why I'm here, and reading and thinking and talking to various people about the situation, including my wife, of course (but in gentle and humorous ways)."
I just don't understand you. You've "tried everything", nothing anyone suggests is anything you haven't already tried, you've read all the books - they have nothing new to say to you, you've both been to counseling - she refuses to go back so you can't do anything about that...I don't get it! You "cannot accept it long term", yet you've "tried everything" and nothing will work. So what the heck is your solution? No advice you've been given here is apparently worthy in your situation because its just "so unusual", or you've already tried it. Therefore, you are just plain SOL as far as your own description of things, yet you "cannot accept it long term". WTF?
ssmguy...I know you are convinced that you've tried everything and no one has anything new to add...but why are you also convinced that you "cannot accept it long term", when you are also not willing to divorce? You've painted yourself into a corner and people who are trying to help you and show you some glimmers of hope are just shot down each and every time.
...Though I'm currently tolerating the situation, I cannot accept it long term. I know that, and that's why I'm here, and reading and thinking and talking to various people about the situation, including my wife, of course (but in gentle and humorous ways)....
.....For me, there is no substitute for total and all-out passionate physical sex consisting of lots of foreplay and sex and mind-blowing orgasms, all lasting the better part of an hour, if not more. To my wife, that's way too long to even consider participating in a non-sexual way on her part -- it's just total boredom and "what's the point" kind of activity for her, and total shock that I would want to do it all again within 48 hours, which is about as long as I want to wait for a repeat....
I will echo some earlier comments. If I were you, from what I have read in the above post, when your marriage reaches it "gridlock critical mass crisis point" I would (as a last act) try one of the pasionate marriage couples workshops. It is the only thing that I have read about (so far) that might produce the kind of intense sex you seem to need.
Either you are more of an alpha-male than I or maybe I am older and physically recover more slowly, but extemely vigorous intercourse with a passionate woman bruises the head of my penis to the point that I really need to not have sex the next day. After a full day plus off, I am ready to do it all over again, but if I have sex more than every other day, it needs to be gentle and involve less animalistic passion.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
ssmguy, you said: "Though I'm currently tolerating the situation, I cannot accept it long term. I know that, and that's why I'm here, and reading and thinking and talking to various people about the situation, including my wife, of course (but in gentle and humorous ways)."
I just don't understand you. You've "tried everything", nothing anyone suggests is anything you haven't already tried, you've read all the books - they have nothing new to say to you, you've both been to counseling - she refuses to go back so you can't do anything about that...I don't get it! You "cannot accept it long term", yet you've "tried everything" and nothing will work. So what the heck is your solution? No advice you've been given here is apparently worthy in your situation because its just "so unusual", or you've already tried it. Therefore, you are just plain SOL as far as your own description of things, yet you "cannot accept it long term". WTF?
ssmguy...I know you are convinced that you've tried everything and no one has anything new to add...but why are you also convinced that you "cannot accept it long term", when you are also not willing to divorce? You've painted yourself into a corner and people who are trying to help you and show you some glimmers of hope are just shot down each and every time.
I'm so confused by you.
DQ
It's not totally incomprehensible. He has a reasonably close idea of what he has to do, but he doesn't want to do it. It's scary and uncertain. I think he'll get there sooner or later, which is why I've stopped pushing him.
"Indeed, I have done a lot of thinking about how we could come up with a compromise, and we did that for some years, where I would experience release but she was not sexually involved at all. But that only works for me if I can keep thinking of it as just one of many different things we're doing. But after a long time, her complete lack of participation made me feel very "left out" and more of the mindset that I have more and more good sex to make up for."
Very sad for both of you. But you do realize, of course, that this was almost certainly like another extended period of molestation and sexual abuse in terms of her feelings and experience of what was going on. I am in no way suggesting that you coerced her. I am merely stating how she almost certainly felt -- silent, passive, unable to stop the sexual use of her body by someone she loved. Until the two of you confront this aspect of your R, now that she has found the strength to resist what may well have felt like assaults to her (even if she rationally knows they were not), I doubt anything will work. And, neither of you may be willing to confront and deal with this until your M truly is on the line. So, back to PM.
