There are way more experienced folks here to give you relationship advice than I...that being said..
In regards to you verifying the actual truth of the matter it's a matter of giving test/baseline questions. In my line of work, When I'm conducting an interview and I believe the subject is guilty of doing something, At first, I ask only questions that I have the absolute definite answers to. This establishes/guages the truthfullness of the individual... Then if decide to go in depth, and I detect deceit, I can sprinkle a few "I know the answer" questions to guage again.... it's not 100% science and takes practice, but it is one technique....
of course body language is critical as well, a simple search on Amazon will get you going.
DD
H50 W44 M17 yrs S15 D11 D10 Bomb 4/09 Trial separation/moved out 9/09 Moved back in 12/29/09
OK fair enough. The reason I am asking is that I first had to face the details by "accident" (far worse than the worst scenario I thought possible) and then I had to decide -again- what to do.
Bottom line was that since I sensed/knew there was an OW for quite some time, what came out hurt me deeply, (possibly severed our chances to make it in the long run mostly because of the pain inflicted) but didnt change my original stance that an A was not a dealbreaker for me (I had to be reminded of that of course by my dear DB friends following my sitch the last 2 years).
You see, if what you hear isnt anything really gross, the fact remains that you DBed your @ss off knowing there were other men/man (if I am correct). If it becomes a dealbreaker now, it would throw your "fight" out of the window. Of course it's you right to have changed your mind in the meantime.
But it seems as now the dealbreaker point is honesty and accepting responsibility from her as well as seeing signs "she can do the hard work". (Sorry if I am confusing, take a moment and try to decipher my Greeklish)
I think you are holding your nuts fine and are clear about what you need. Let's see if she means what she says. K
But it seems as now the dealbreaker point is honesty and accepting responsibility from her as well as seeing signs "she can do the hard work". (Sorry if I am confusing, take a moment and try to decipher my Greeklish)
I understand you Kalni, if you're using google translate to type all of this, the translation is wicked accurate LOL!
The dealbreaker has always been honest & accepting responsibility for her actions and I guess she finally realized that I'm not bluffing.
I don't think I could hear anything that would be "gross" as far as what she did, I don't think so anyways, seriously even if she said she was "triple teamed european style", I don't think that would impact my decision, the thing is I can't be with someone who is dishonest, I did that for far too long and I'm not doing that anymore, it's not fun anymore (not that it ever was).
Although I've never posted to you before, I have used your postings as guidance in my own 2 1/2 year voyage.
In fact, my H came over yesterday to talk to me after a couple of weeks of turning him down & I said many of the same things you said to your W yesterday.
After all that trying to get me to hear him out on something that could "save our children, me, & him years of heartache," he offered me nothing that he hadn't before, so I sent him on his way.
I think it was you who said they have to hit bottom fully, & really experience a "crisis point" before there's a wake up call. It looks like that's where she is now.
Although I understand the need & value to finding out the details of her A('s), is there any chance you could be satified with general outlines, i.e., names, places, length of time, etc. without going into all the sordid details?
There's that old adage about staying away from the making of sausage, especially when the sausage making has been extra ugly.
I do agree that she needs to come cleaner than she has, & come thru with full transparency & honesty. Considering she's so withholding with information right now, my guess is that there probably was something inappropriate with someone in your circle of friends. And yes, I would also want to know the participants.
BTW, thanks for all the paying forward you do, it's been an incredible help for many.
The dealbreaker has always been honest & accepting responsibility for her actions and I guess she finally realized that I'm not bluffing.
I don't think I could hear anything that would be "gross" as far as what she did, I don't think so anyways, seriously even if she said she was "triple teamed european style", I don't think that would impact my decision, the thing is I can't be with someone who is dishonest, I did that for far too long and I'm not doing that anymore, it's not fun anymore (not that it ever was).
I would definitely state this to her, absolutely this clearly, when you're pretty sure she'll absorb it (or reiterate it, if you already have) before the final chop.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Considering she's so withholding with information right now, my guess is that there probably was something inappropriate with someone in your circle of friends.
That's what I read too. Look towards someone very close.
EDIT: Someone that she thinks that if you knew would be a deal breaker. That and her conscience bothering her that you would consider her a tramp.
Last edited by Gnosis; 12/22/0910:49 PM. Reason: added a sentence
I do agree that she needs to come cleaner than she has, & come thru with full transparency & honesty. Considering she's so withholding with information right now, my guess is that there probably was something inappropriate with someone in your circle of friends. And yes, I would also want to know the participants.
BTW, thanks for all the paying forward you do, it's been an incredible help for many.
I'm thinking that too, I think it may have been with someone in our circle of friends.
As for details, if anyone is wondering, I'm not talking about details as in positions, toys used, etc. LOL! Seriously, I don't need that type of detail and that wouldn't be something I would want to hear.
I have never been involved in an A while married so this is pure mind reading and conjecture but perhaps the WAS does not want to give details and info becaiuse they fear that it would be held over their head in the future like the sword of Damocles. It is probably a frightening feeling , like they may be forever indebted if the other spouse has to FORGIVE something on such a large scale and the may fear that they could never make a wrong move again.
I understand the need for truth and honesty, though. To me as horrendous and painful as an A is, the lying and covering up is more difficult to forgive. I could forgive an A if my H is honest, open , contrite and accountable. It is hard to repair with deceit still in the picture.
However,perhaps you W really fears that her scale of As is unforgivable and that you will hold that against her despite saying that you won't. At the end of the day love is about vulnerability and what could be a greater example of that than two people honestly and openly repairing a M in these circumstances? It takes vulnerability on both parts not just the WAS in confessing to wrongdoing.
If my H and I were to work things out I just want to know enough to hold my head up high around people who knew about the A and may have seen him with OW. I don't ever want anyone feeling that they have one up on me where my H's actions and whereabouts are concerned.I understand not wanting too many details. To know everything would be torture for me because my mind is like a vault and it is hard to rid it of information once it is in there.
In my situation I would not allow my H to play the role of hero AND martyr with his BS, justifications and excuses as there was nothing heroic about the way he handled things.
For months and months after I confronted him (I kept the info I had to myself for FIVE months) it was always "well, I didn't want to hurt you more and I am a good guy and everybody think so".
To this day (and we have now been legally separated for one month and living apart for almost two years with very little contact) he still believes he can keep his long term affair around, have me when it suits him and if things start to seem okay with us he might leave his GF. LOL!
For your W to say "it's not as bad as you think" is crap. If it's not that bad then start talking and provide me with the info I need to have. That is why they usually do not, they know they will be doing so w/o any safety net and once it is all out there they have very little power and take the risk of losing you for good and also ticking of the affair partner for "coming clean" leaving the WAS with nothing.
The funny (not ha ha funny) aspect of many WAS that do have an affair and get caught is the idea they have concocted that THEY are the ones taking the gamble and not the LBS. I really feel until that mindset changes on the part of the WAS than nothing will really change.
People that really want to heal and change a R, especially a marriage will go to any length and take any risk necessary. And many will disagree but I see very few WAS that are able to do that when an affair has happened. Especially when the separation reaches the 1 or 2 year mark.
Just one month ago my H told me the R with his GF was not all roses and they fight and breakup daily but he wants to try and stick it out and not run like he always does. So, IOW, he would rather stay in an unhealthy R than be alone since I told him that was not acceptable to me, I was not his fallback option and it spoke volumes he would rather nurture a R with some sort of lunatic than his W of a decade. And when I say lunatic... my H works with this woman and on the average she calls him 30 to 40 times a day (I can see his cell records) and calls him at all hours of the night. She demanded my H never speak to me again despite the fact we had to have minimal exchanges to finalize our agreement. Too much drama for me.
I know way more than I ever thought I would about my H and his affair/GF and honestly, for me, it has been helpful. If that is what my H is attracted to then he is far less of a quality human being than I thought.
The evolution of a WAS is not all that impressive IMO. Now that I am in a much better place and living my own life and healing and moving forward I see how silly my H still acts. His actions are no different than right after the bomb and now I simply find it disturbing. Two years have passed and he is very stuck. Me, I am moving along quite nicely!
I almost feel like the man in the R with my H and I don't like that. He is too weak and I desire a strong man but I had to be strong for me.
My bottom line was simple - I will not allow you to have OW and me to test drive both out and see what you choose. As I said it's been a month since we have been separated and I only deal with my H when I have to execute portions of our Agreement. Now the e-mails are flooding in that he misses me and he guesses he better get used to me treating him this way. LOL! I treat him with civility as he is a human being. He simply is not a human being that will have the loyalty and dedication from me that he is so used to.
Eventually all LBS get to the point where enough is enough and it's time for the WAS to adhere to some of their terms without acting like the martyr and hero.
I think the way your W is behaving is normal. In fact, it is much how my H's GF behaves - the crying and drama just to keep you around and avoid hurting yet ANOTHER person. Lame.
I participated in this BS for 2 years and now I am done. I made my needs and boundaries very well known and they fell on deaf ears. There are too many men out there that are NOT deaf and weak and I plan to find me one!
Talk is cheap. Actions are what I needed and it sounds like you need action as well from your W.
I could write novels about what my H did - it was far more than an affair but what is the point? All those other things could have been repaired AND created a segway to begin working on the "biggie" (his affair) but that was too much work for him. And I am talking the crap he pulled post bomb. At the end of the day he simply is unable to take a good hard look at himself.
Thankfully I have taken a good hard look at myself and once you do that, what you see the WAS changes drastically.
and are clear about what you need. Let's see if she means what she says.