well she came by this afternoon, dropped off a christmas card just for me, with some heartfelt words, asked for a hug and then walked away with tears in her eyes, I do feel bad for her but I can't budge on the honesty issue, I want the full disclosure & transparency, without it, a 1000 of these christmas cards isn't going to do anything for me - I'll take the truth & honesty over a christmas card any day of the year!
Well, you know what they say, the worst vice is ad-vice, so I don't have any (it's one of the few vices I avoid).
A clarification request and a sequencing question/thought:
First, what do you mean by "spill the beans?" (I'm with SMcQ on this -- do you really want to hear her say, 'I was on him like a Hoover vacuum'?) MWD talks about this in the infidelity chapter -- some people need all the nit-noid details, others don't.
Second, how do you envision the sequencing going? I'm thinking about this from her POV. I tell you everything, down to the most embarrassing, gory detail, and you get wig out because I did "this" or "that" to him and tell me to f*ck off -- so what's in it for me, exactly?
Would it be enough that she acknowledged the affair(s) as her opening bid, and then the gorier details get could get sorted out in counseling?
This is, after all, a strategic interaction -- it's not really a bargaining environment if the first-round negotiation is "my way or no way."
Now perhaps that's really what's going on, and you're just not willing to acknowledge it. Maybe "I won't have dishonesty" is simply a rationalization because you can't bring yourself to say, "I don't want her under any set of circumstances."
If that's the case, then you might want to think about spilling the beans to yourself.
If it isn't the case, then it might be worth thinking of this as a sequenced interaction. First, the teams need to get on the same playing field. So what's it going to take to make that happen?
Hey SP, as for the details, I'm not looking for the nitty gritty intimate details, I want to know who & when and for how long it went on, we have a large circle of friends and I always had a sneaking suspicion something went on with one of our friends and I can't be that clueless chump that walks around not knowing that I'm buddy buddy with a guy that screwed my wife - I deserve to know this much. As I mentioned in a previous post, I'm not looking to find out if she was "triple teamed european style", that's the not the scope of what I'm looking for. I also want to know when the last encounter was and if she was with both of us at that time - yes another thing that I want to know.
As for what's in it for her? Good question, but my answer is nothing. I'm not here to give her anything. I've turned this around, she has lost me and she realizes it and now she's scrambling and I would be dishonest if I didn't say I didn't enjoy this just a bit - all of the crap that she put me through in the beginning was enough to break most men including the guy who is typing this response now.
In the end it's my decision to forgive but I'm not going to offer forgiveness so easily or at all, I'm not sure yet. But I can tell you that none of that will exist in the current environment, if she isn't honest with me, there is no possibility for me to offer forgiveness at all.
If me rationalizing to myself that "I won't have dishonesty" is just an excuse for me not to forgive her, if that's what it truly is, its very possible that this is the case.
I know I'm at the point where I haven't lost anything anymore, I have gained more from this current situation. She was my wife, she was someone I trusted and now regardless of the legalities involved, she isn't any of those things, I don't trust her, she continues to behave in ways that don't promote trust and no one has to accept that just because you are married to someone.
Without trust & honesty there is nothing, the sex was great, I acknowledge that, but I also acknowledge that I contributed to that and that means I can have great sex with another partner if & when that situation presents itself, she doesn't hold that over me anymore and she can't control me that way anymore either - this is why we're at this point now, she lost that ability to control me and she was very used to that power and she has nothing left. Coupled with the dating which it's quite possible she knows about, something crazy has triggered her recent reactions.
In the end, I know that ultimately it's my decision to love her, to take her back, to forgive her for what she's done, I know that much.
However before any of that is possible for me, I want the truth and I want to know about the details of the affair(s) that I specifically asked about, without that info, none of these other things would be remotely possible for me.
Ask her if she's ready for the long haul, the process that is rebuilding. No matter how much I love my W I couldn't begin to start again without the mutual understanding that it will not happen overnight, that it will be a long journey and that not much will appear to change for a long time.
What you're going through could be considered a part of the reconciliation process, in that much of it is about the clashes that come from re-learning about each other and what led up to the problems. If that's the case, I congratulate you.
Love, I'm learning is about conciliation, collaboration, cooperation. You have to get over the ego tug-o-war. I couldn't. I know I'll have to in order to move forward, but I'm not willing to if she isn't either. It's the "who drops their guard first" dilemma.
My only real advice is to offer some olive branch, despite the past betrayals, and see what happens. Give fair warning that any sign of dishonesty, etc will lead to your immediate shut-down. She has to work for the rest, but my hunch is that if she is serious, it will lead to more honest communication.
Take it or leave it. I'm still pining for a W that clearly wants nothing to do w/ me romantically, so what do I know? I hope it helps, though.
~Mark
Me: 38 W: 34 Together: 9yrs 1st M: may '03 1st D: april '08 1st bomb: june '08 remarried: oct '08 2nd bomb: aug '09 --(W asked for D one week into 3 mo. trial separation which was meant to save our M)
BTW, on my thread... sorry about the MR Puggy thing... I am not really that shallow to think otherwise.
Back to you... I have done a lot of reading here...WOW!
Agree with you 100%. You have the right to know. I would also hate to be walking around "buddy buddy" not knowing what others may know thinking I know what I don't know and looking like the A$$ because of something I did not do. If that makes sense.
You are in control of you now. That's the way it should be. If she wants you back, she needs to earn your trust.
Thats all. I agree with you.
Good Luck with everything.
Me 43 / W 40 T 29 / M 15 S-18 11/4/09-ILYBINILWY 11/10/09-Separated 12/1/09-W admitted EA 12/5/09-W admitted PA 12/24/09 W say "I love you"
"A GOOD MARRIAGE IS NOT ONE WHERE PERFECTION REIGNS"
Here's the thing: she will have nothing if she continues on the way she is going. If he takes her back without full (who-where-when) disclosure, she will only be confirmed in her (as reported) conviction that no one will love her if they know who she really is, but she can get them to love the liar.
That's an agonizing way to live, there's an emptiness at the heart of everything. Rob would do her no favors by enabling that belief.
She has no guarantee, and I don't think that's unfair. How can he give her a preemptive guarantee that all will be forgiven when he knows the truth without knowing what that truth comprises?
She has the chance to break through to a better relationship than she ever imagined if she just is able to take a leap of faith here and stop trying to manage her image and others' perceptions. Even without guarantees, I think that's a risk worth taking. It could even be viewed as a gift.
I think SP has a point worth considering on the continuum-of-revelation. It seems like what you're mostly looking for is a symbolic commitment to honesty from her, yes? At first, I mean. Instead of the resistance you've been getting. If she surrendered on that point, would you think about some kind of schedule or process (in counseling, perhaps, as aforesaid) for progressive truth?
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
Resistance to being honest is the deal breaker, and I'm not going to enable her behaviors, I'll continue doing what i'm doing and move on with my life, I can't force her to come clean with the info but I can guarantee you that I would want nothing to do with someone who can't be honest with me.
She has no guarantee, and I don't think that's unfair. How can he give her a preemptive guarantee that all will be forgiven when he knows the truth without knowing what that truth comprises?
My point exactly.
Maybe it's just me but I think i've given enough: my marriage, the past 2 years of my life living in limbo and her having an affair/affairs seems to me like something has been taken away from me. I don't think I want to give anymore at this point, that's not me being selfish, it's just me being honest with what I want to have and what I want to give if anything.
For what it’s worth, I read just a few days ago that a marriage stands an 85% better chance of surviving if the details of the affair are discussing. (I can cite the source if you like).
My W still doesn’t know that I know about the A, but I pondered this and it makes sense. If my W eventually does want to come back, I’ve decided that she’ll have to honest about what happened. Without honesty, there can be no real trust. I would want to know, “When did it start? When did it move from an EA to a PA? How often did you see him? When did it end? How/why did it end?” I don’t need the gory details.
If you don’t know this stuff, you’ll go forward always wondering. And isn’t that where we are now – always wondering? That’s no way to heal a relationship much less move forward with it, IMO.
H: 50 W: 48 Married 20 years Bomb and separation: 9/12/09 A discovered 12/02/09 http://tinyurl.com/yctnhec
I think SP has a point worth considering on the continuum-of-revelation. It seems like what you're mostly looking for is a symbolic commitment to honesty from her, yes? At first, I mean. Instead of the resistance you've been getting. If she surrendered on that point, would you think about some kind of schedule or process (in counseling, perhaps, as aforesaid) for progressive truth?
I think SP and Kettricken make good points re: the continuum of revealtion. It seems that you are looking for a large scale truth-dump where all the gory details are brought out in one shot. You want 100% honesty and after two years of fighting, showing strength and growing as a person, you deserve nothing less than 100% honesty. The problem with honesty is that it is really sort of a nebulous concept. You can never really know if someone is being 100% honest, even in a healthy relationship. If she came to you and confessed 100 affairs and gave million details, you would still have a feeling in the back of your mind that maybe that wasn't the whole story. Don't get me wrong, I am a details kind of guy and I won't move forward with my W (if we ever get to that point) without some serious sharing on her part.
IMO, your W needs to admit something at this point and show remorse, for me, that would be the minimum cover charge to get in the reconcilliation door. I think the continuum approach is good and instead of looking at the quantity of the effort, maybe a better measure of her commitment is the quality and consistency of her efforts over the coming months.
