And, like it or not, a component of the lack of tension between us has to do with my being able to get my physical sexual needs met by other means. And if any of you think that's terrible and lamentable, and all that, well, I can tell you it's not cancer. And I know what that's like and it's not even close.
When I read what you write about your experiences, it isn't like my life is being reflected by someone else's experience. It's more like someone having a parallel experience. You've made one choice that I haven't and in the context that you have presented I completely understand.
It' is not like you have not taken many, if not all, the steps. We are surrounded by people of eternal optimism (and disbelief) as if we can force our spouses to change themselves. We are told to "work on ourselves" to improve ourselves (in the hope that will change our spouses view of us) though we have evidence that it makes "no difference." The challenge you and I and others like us face is that the promise of who we would be in the marriage and how that would look and play out in the marriage has been broken (and not by us).
We did not expect that breakage and had we known it, no matter how attractive and how much we liked our future spouses before we got married, if we had known if was going to turn out this way, we most likely would not have made the choice to get married to them. In referring to marriage fidelity, I've seen Chris Matthews refer to it as saying "for the rest of your life, you can have steak. But that's all you can have." In our case, it has gone to "you cannot have steak any longer." Ultimately, we feel lied to, as if it were all part of a grand deception.
Your last paragraph is particularly instructive, however. Though I've always had the capacity to separate what was actually happening from my own (and others) interpretation to maintain some constructive view of the situation, there is an added layer that your last paragraph suggest that I haven't given much weight to.
As a cancer survivor, I know my view of life was dramatically altered by the diagnosis. People handle that diagnosis and view of their own mortality differently. Some people hide in fear, others throw everything away because they perceive they've lived they lie long enough, and others shine and see what and who they really value, even in the face of imperfection. I don't know what your own experience was, but I was confronted both by wonder and awe in who I was in the face in my own diagnosis, extreme discomfort by others who did not like confronting mortality so directly, and even fear (of loss).
Whatever the circumstances, the experiences alters your perceptions forever (and maybe the perceptions of those around you). It appears that in your case, as in mine, it added to your view of life and gives it a realistic and pragmatic approach. I would not wish a cancer diagnosis on anyone any more than I would wish their spouse to cheat on them while claiming fidelity to the marriage. But I know, as do you, that it changes everything in a way that those who never deal with it cannot understand. It reminded me that the experience of cancer is another reason to gently tell those who say we know there is a choice we have to make, or we know what it is and we are putting it off, they simply do not know what they are talking about.
I thought it best to let you know that I, for one, am not confused and appreciate your reporting on what you've done, what your life has become, and how you've approached it.
Thank you for your sharing.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
Very sad for both of you. But you do realize, of course, that this was almost certainly like another extended period of molestation and sexual abuse in terms of her feelings and experience of what was going on.
That's a good way of looking at it. The description fits her.
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Until the two of you confront this aspect of your R,
I have done nothing but confront. To the point that she had a bad reaction to all my insistence on talking and confronting the issue. It seems she saw my constant efforts to make her face all the issues as a continuation of the abuse.
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And, neither of you may be willing to confront and deal with this until your M truly is on the line.
From my point of view, that statement is based on two false premises. (1) that I have not confronted, and that I'm not willing to confront, and (2) that my wife's lack of sexual desire is sufficient to conclude that she has NOT confronted the issue herself, or the logical equivalent, that by confronting, my wife will automatically desire sex again.
No advice you've been given here is apparently worthy in your situation because its just "so unusual", or you've already tried it.
What else would you expect from someone who's been dealing with the problem for a long time? Is it reasonable for me to try something again just because it's the first time you, in particular, are suggesting it? I'm not saying my problem is unusual, but I am saying it's difficult and maybe impossible. And my therapists have told me as much.
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but why are you also convinced that you "cannot accept it long term", when you are also not willing to divorce?
Exactly what I say. I'm not willing to accept it long term, meaning I may divorce in the long term. But I'm not willing to divorce now. Maybe that's a strange concept to people who focus mostly on the "am I in love or not" of the moment. It's possible to want to stay married for now, and like it, and yet realize that a divorce down the road is probably the best, or likely, etc.
It's possible to want to stay married for now, and like it, and yet realize that a divorce down the road is probably the best, or likely, etc.
Read that again. You are saying that you'd rather coast along without rocking the boat and an eventual divorce is "probably the best" or the most likely outcome--and accepting that. This is the thinking people have been trying to point out to you. You're talking about everyone else being pro-divorce and urging divorce on you, but they're not. And you're talking about your stand against divorce on behalf of your children, but the stance you're taking is not against divorce. It amounts to accepting that divorce will become inevitable in exchange for keeping the peace at present and delaying that divorce.
You are saying that you'd rather coast along without rocking the boat and an eventual divorce is "probably the best" or the most likely outcome--and accepting that.
No, not coasting. And not confronting, which doesn't work. Something in between, where I bring it up in gentle discussions and use the "I" language. But I think it's realistic to consider that it will not work to the extent that I need.
Is it common for women who are in healthy, active, normal sexual relationships to not want to have their partner touch their "private parts", such as their breasts and vulva? I'm of course, speaking of activities during petting, foreplay, or sex. I'm not talking about the "unwanted" and inconsiderate groping by the horny husband when the wife is in the middle of making dinner and the pot is boiling over and smoke is coming out of the oven.
For a while, my wife had me convinced that it was just a "personal preference" to not ever be touched in those areas. Yet, in contrast, I could never imagine NOT being delighted by being touched in any of my private areas, as long as it wasn't done in public in an embarrassing way. But I assumed that our stark contrast was more of a typical male-female difference. But it did puzzle me when I read women's magazine articles about improving your love life, which recommended more foreplay and stimulation. It confused me. Did women want to be touched in those places or not?
And this was the case with my wife even when we first met and she was totally OK with intercourse and otherwise didn't seem to show even a hint of having any kinds of problems with sex. Or perhaps it was my lack of experience that I didn't realize her prohibition against touching of her private parts was anything unusual?
Obviously, the golden rule has been of no use in trying to understand how my wife feels about sex. If anything, a helpful rule might be the opposite -- if there's anything about sex I feel one way about, it's almost guaranteed my wife is going to feel the opposite way about it.
You're saying "realistic" and "consider," but what you're doing is beyond that. You've spent 18 pages now. You keep repeating that everyone else is promising that your wife will magically become sexual or that if you just try this or that one idea (that you've already tried) it will fix things, or that everyone is "guaranteeing" sexual desire from your wife. No one in the thread has guaranteed or promised anything. You are recasting what we've said in absolutes because it's easy to debunk an absolute. At the same time, you're talking about considering the possibility of failure, but you're acting as if you believe in guaranteed failure. It's only fear. It will pass.
I can help you with this much, though: don't read "women's" magazines. If you do, don't believe what you find in there. The women who write in for advice or to tell stories are generally accepted to be fictional characters. The advice is pointless at best, harmful at worst. Think of it this way--would you take your sex advice from Maxim or GQ or any of the other silly "men's" magazines? Same thing.
Search "Pervocracy cosmocking" for a very sexual woman's take on Cosmopolitan, the queen of sex advice for women in "women's magazines."
I'll address it..."Is it common for women who are in healthy, active, normal sexual relationships to not want to have their partner touch their "private parts", such as their breasts and vulva?"
No, its not that common for women in healthy, active, normal sex lives to not want to be touched...although some women who are healthy, active and normally sexual will still not prefer to be touched directly...however normally this points directly to some kind of trauma having happened to the woman. Ie: your wife is normal for a woman who was sexually abused as a child (she is not in a normal sex life because of this, regardless of your marriage). Some abuse survivors get over this and come to have a normal sex life, including wanting to be touched in those areas.
Keep in mind though, that there are men who don't want to be touched either. Everyone is different and has different tastes. Some men want to hop on and hop off with no touching or intimacy.
DanceQueen, thanks for your answer. The interesting thing is that my wife likes a back massage, which I have given her many times. And a few times, when we were relaxed and had extra time, I let my hands playfully massage toward a "private area". In every case, without exception, she reacted sharply, as if I had tried something dirty or forbidden. Another case of the golden rule not working because I would find it delicious to be given a massage by her and have her hands slowly wander to more intimate areas. In my case, there would never be a time I would NOT want it. In her case, she NEVER wanted it when I tried it.
I haven't been very successful in discussing the sexual abuse effect with my wife. When I suggest that her lack of wanting to be touched in intimate places might be related to the abuse, she insists it's only a personal preference. With that kind of reaction it's hard to convince her that she needs further therapy for the abuse.
