Oh, I got the memo alright. For years, according to my wife, the reasons (100's of different ones) she didn't want sex was because of something I had done, or failed to have done, or said, or failed to have said. And sometimes they were things that took place, or didn't and should have, days ago, months ago, or even years ago.
Originally Posted By: TeaEarlGreyHot
I'm 56 years old so it's not like I'm some immature teenager with raging hormones.
I'm about the same age as you, so I'm not a teenager. But my hormones are still raging. Which goes against all the crap I've heard from experts who say that men peak sexually in their late teens, while women peak in middle age. And so by the time a couple hits middle age, or so the theory goes, many couples are closely matched in terms of sexual desire and function. This is the biggest piece of crap I've ever heard, based on my personal observations, including friends of both genders. Of course there are exceptions, but this "expert" wisdom is generally NOT true. Just why do you think the entire Jay Leno audience laughs when the premise of the joke is the woman doesn't want sex? It's because everybody knows it's so common. Duh.
I know the author of this forum has written a book for HD women with LD men, and I'm sure there are many such couples out of the millions in this country. But it is not as common as your situations, or my situation, or the situation Leno jokes about all the time.
"I know the author of this forum has written a book for HD women with LD men, and I'm sure there are many such couples out of the millions in this country. But it is not as common as your situations, or my situation, or the situation Leno jokes about all the time."
ssmguy...it IS just as common, its just that HD men with LD wives will complain openly about it, whereas HD women with LD husbands are too ashamed to complain openly about it. Why? Because the first reaction they will get from anyone they complain to is "maybe he's gay."
Whereas, when an HD man complains about his LD wife, whoever he complains to might say "maybe you aren't doing something right to turn her on" or "maybe you need to meet more of her emotional needs"...but they will NOT say "maybe she's gay".
This is a cultural issue that has to do with how we are raised, what we learned from previous generations, and what is going on in the world around us. Things are changing and future generations will not have this strange discrepancy. Future generations will realize that there are HD and LD people of BOTH SEXES and that the only real problem with this is that the HD people should marry HD people, and LD people should marry LD people. I personally know several women who are HD whose men are LD, it is NOT UNCOMMON.
Low desire does not favor a particular gender, ssmguy...it is only the fact that no woman wants to hear that the reason her man doesn't want sex may be because he is gay, because if that is the case then there is no hope for her at all.
I believe that as we grow and mature into our own adulthoods, we tend to think that whatever we are experiencing is "normal". Therefore, when we hear of something outside of our experience, we assume it must not be "normal". When we dig a little deeper though, we may find that our experience is actually NOT normal and it takes a lot of self-education to figure out what "normal" actually is. By this time, our self confidence may be shredded, because now we do not know how to gauge the world. Our assumptions about our own experience being normal is actually a hindrance to our development.
I wanted to mention something about sexual abuse survivors, too...
Both men and women who were sexually abused as children have different emotional results and reactions to it when they grow up.
Some of them can separate the abuse from their development to a large degree and have a normal sex life, with very little fallout.
Some of them end up being very closed off about sex and will avoid it because it triggers abuse memories (or even subconscious bad feelings with no memories). Many in this category will tend to project their feelings about their abuser onto their adult sex partners.
Some of them end up being wildly sexual, but it is hollow and not fulfilling. Many in this category end up being sex addicts.
MOST STRIPPERS fall into that last category. MOST STRIPPERS, PROSTITUTES AND PORN STARS WERE SEXUALLY ABUSED. I personally feel that there is nothing morally wrong with a woman who is healthy and happy with her body and wants to share it visually with others, but this would be only about 1% of strippers. In reality, the other 99% are participating in a form of self-abuse, which is related to the abuse they suffered as children. Therefore, if you as a man are going to a strip club, to you it may just be about pleasure and arousal...but you are actually participating in the further abuse of these strippers because they are in the middle of an act of self-abuse. Most strippers also have drug issues, usually as a result of trying to deal with the way they are abusing their own bodies and trying to escape from the pain of it.
That's why, in your case ssmguy, it seems horrible for you to go to strippers...these women have been abused just like your wife was, they are just acting it out in a different way. I really wish you would take this into consideration, but I'm sure you will just feel that I am making one of my "American Agonized Moral Statements As Related to Puritan Values". (LOL!)
One more thing...
ssmguy...In my opinion, you have also suffered a form of abuse. The projection by your wife of her abuse issues onto you, to the extent that it has made you feel like a pervert simply for wanting to have a normal sex life, was abusive to you. Not that she realized she was doing this, but her issues have caused her to also abuse you.
If you could possibly get her to see this point, through therapy or whatever, then maybe there could be some hope for your marriage...
Oh and by the way...just so you don't think I am popping off about this with no direct knowledge...I am bi-sexual, have been to lots of strip clubs, have had friends who have stripped, have talked extensively to strippers myself about their lives, have known men who have dated strippers and heard all their stories...and I also live in the US city with the highest per capita number of strip clubs in the country...so please don't think I'm making that opinion out of thin air based just on "American Agonized Moral Statements as Related to Puritan Values". I have been there and done that, and yes I've paid women to strip for me and for lap dances.
DanceQueen, heard somewhere that about 1/3 of couples showing up at the therapist with desire differences involve couples where the husband is LD. So that's almost half. If it's the case that fewer women will complain, maybe the split really is 50/50. Yes, a shock for me to personally comprehend that, but intellectually I can believe it. And it's not like I haven't met a few of them. But it's easy for me to dismiss their comments as being "novelty" driven. Sure, I reason to myself, they say that now, but a few months into the relationship, the novelty will wear off and it'll be back to "no sex tonight" all over again. Which has been a deterrent for me to divorce and just getting a new relationship. With stories of menopause and such, I feel the chances are pretty good that it'll be right back to "no sex" in short order, no matter how much sex it started off with, and I'll be right back where I started and wishing I hadn't divorced.
Yes, I'm aware that most strippers, etc., have been sexually abused. In which case, it's possible that I have never had a sexual encounter with a woman who was NOT sexually abused. Perhaps I've become accustomed to a lack of "normal" sexual connection because of my wife's abuse. As a result, perhaps I don't fully understand what I'm missing that I might have experienced with a long-term normal relationship? I do have the intuition that if I were with a woman who felt about sex the way I do, in both an emotional and physical way, it would be a very different experience. But it's my sense that I've always had to keep those feelings and physical expressions to myself, because they are "inappropriate" to my wife. I feel they're FINE, but I know she doesn't. If I were with someone who also felt they were fine, it would be a huge relief. But I've never experienced that in real life so it's just a theory or a feeling on my part.
And no, I don't find your statements "moralizing" at all. Everything you've said sounds right on the money.
That's why, in your case ssmguy, it seems horrible for you to go to strippers...these women have been abused just like your wife was, they are just acting it out in a different way. I really wish you would take this into consideration, ...
Again, I have no argument with that. My lame response to that is, well, it's no different with my wife. If I try to have sex with her too, it's just perpetuating the abuse. No matter who it is, it seems, there is a good reason for me not to have sex with that person, yet I really can't manage without some kind of sexual activity with a real person once in a while. It's the nature of my situation and I'm used to it.
I should also add, I also know masseuses who provide a little extra, etc. I'm not so big on strippers in particular. But that might not change your argument much.
I can handle the physical urge myself on a daily basis, but there's also a powerful need to be physically close and sexual with a woman once in a while. If it goes too long without that, I fantasize about it more and more. It helps to have a recent memory of a real encounter, or the expectation of a real encounter in the near future. So the situation I've chosen to put myself in has turned out to be sexually unmanageable, at least in the sense that I would find it very difficult to be completely celibate the way some other patient and devoted men seem to be able to be. But I can tell you that if I have a wife who is sexually receptive and energetic, I would have no interest in meeting up with someone else, and my personal history backs that up 100%. The way I see it, sex with the same person can get better and better as you know more about what turns each other on within a fun and shared privacy.
How did you resolve the effect the abuse might have had on your sexuality? And what do you mean by commitment issues?
I was lucky that my parents believed me when I eventually told them what was going on and I started counselling early (at about 13) and stayed in therapy until I was about 18. My counsellor was good and she helped me understand what had happened - why it wasn't about me and taught me skills to separate my chosen experiences from those that were out of my control.
I also think I live in a slightly more permissive culture and generation which has contributed to a healthier perception of my sexuality than might be the case for an older middle class American woman.
The drawback for me has been that during all those formative years of counselling, the therapy was based around learning to be strong and independent - almost a Marxist rather than feminist approach to life - so I learned that if I was economically and emotionally independent, I wouldn't need to rely on anyone (in particular any man) so no one could "hurt" me. That's made it tough for the men in my life because I don't trust myself to be vulnerable. I equate being vulnerable with being weak, hence at risk. (I've read the Schnarch level 6 debate with interest and wonder!!!)
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Well, my wife is strong and independent, and she doesn't need to rely on me. And when it comes to intimacy, that now seems to have made it tough for the man in her life. So you sound like my wife in some ways. But then how do you handle intimacy, which would seem to mean you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable?
Now, I have no problem with women who are strong, independent, smart, and successful. In fact, I find it a turn-on.
Seriously, you need some counseling. Forget having a good sex life with W right now. You are not in a place to have a good sex life with anyone. Time to get some IC and get to a better place.
But then how do you handle intimacy, which would seem to mean you have to allow yourself to be vulnerable?
I don't think you need to be that vulernable to have sex. Sex is just sex. You need to be vulerable to make love or have a truely intimate sexual relationship and from what i can see that takes two partners who are at the same level of emotional and personal maturity.
There's a theory (commented on in a lot of self-help literature) that we attract what we give out ... so I wonder if I've attracted partners - especially my exhusband - who at the time we were married was as sexually immature as I was, despite the fact he was 16 years older than me.
Certainly I've noticed that as I've done the interal work to grow into a more self aware person post divorce I do tend to attract and be attracted to partners who are more aware of the emotional investment required to be truely intimate in a sexual relationship.
I believe in marriage and I believe that marriage is important for families. I think the idea that two people can grow up together and explore this stuff in the context of a safe and shared history is a huge gift. I do however also know that sometimes that's not possible.
Sometimes, like in my case, in the 12 years I was married I grew up and my husband didn't and wasn't prepared to. The evidence of that is in where I am today compared to him - he's still thrashing around wondering what went wrong in his 2 failed marriages (his first wife, and me) and why his third (current) marriage isn't making him happy and doesn't have enough intimacy.
He's 55 years old and he still doesn't understand that it's his inability to grow that's keeping him stagnant. He doesn't understand that if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got. We all repeat the patterns that keep us stuck until we accept that there is no external thing that's going to happen to make our life better. Not more sex, not more money, not a better handicap and most certainly not a new Jaguar (although I just got an e-mail from my gorgeous x that he has just bought a new Jag!!! poor silly bugger).
All of those things (not enough sex, money, golf etc) are symptoms of significantly more fundamental issues going on within us that we need to deal with in order that we can meet our true potential.
Try asking yourself what is it within you that has allowed this lack-of-sex pattern to be created in your life? You might be surprised at what you find out.
V
Never make someone a priority, who makes you an option.
Seriously, you need some counseling. Forget having a good sex life with W right now. You are not in a place to have a good sex life with anyone. Time to get some IC and get to a better place.
My wife and I have both been to extensive counseling, both jointly and individually, and it has helped a lot. We both learned to separate our sexual differences from everything else we share. I'm in a place to have a good sex life anytime. But my wife is not interested.
To repeat, I don't automatically assume there is anything wrong with my wife for not being interested in sex. Plenty of people don't have sex (especially if they are single and live alone). It's just not what I want, that's all. I don't know why you think that automatically makes me "not in a place to have sex with anyone", except in the obvious sense that I don't have a willing partner.
