Thanks. The therapy session was fantastic! I think we found a winner, although my LD wife felt a little overwhelmed.
The therapist suggested without my having to bring it up sensate focus exercises and give us assignments to do prior to our next session.
She also gave us a Sinclair Institute sex instruction video to watch together and had specific questions she wanted my wife to answer as to how she felt about certain segments of the tape.
The therapist also did a series of questions with my wife asking her what she thought would happen if nothing in our relationship were to change. My wife admitted after a lot of avoidance that we would probably divorce. Then the therapist asked me if I had ever thought about divorce. I said that I had, but it wasn't what I wanted. She then asked me if things didn't change, would I seek a divorce. I said that I would. The therapist really wanted my wife to understand what the consequences of her choices were.
Then the therapist help create an image of what might be if we do get closer together and more intimate. She then told us that we should visualize those goals and try in interject play and laughing into our touching and sex live.
I really felt that we got our money's worth out of that session. It was everything I had hoped for.
What was more interesting was the reaction from my wife later in the day when we got home. She felt that she had had her soul rubbed raw by the therapist and she told me that she had to spend time away from me to calm herself. She told me that she wasn't withdrawing from me, but that she needed time for herself to heal and calm down. I really believe what she said and it was an interesting insight in why I feel that she may withdraw from me whenever she feels close to me.
I am looking forward to the therapy execises (assuming that my wife does them with me) and our next therapy session.
All in all a great day. Still no touching or sex, but there is a lot more hope for a better future.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Your therapist sounds fantastic! That's great news. I hope your wife comes around . . . but I think she will. If I had to guess, I would suppose that hearing about your thoughts of divorce and being cornered into admitting that she knows that could happen were probably the worst parts for her. But it's well worth it, and she will probably realize that before long.
I have been on a work trip for the past couple of days. I am really looking forward to our next therapy session next week. Because of a work-related event this weekend, my wife and I are taking off on a trip and will be staying at a hotel this weekend.
I have been reading up on sensate focus exercises, reflexology, and couples massage. I hope to make the sensate focus exercises really memorable for my wife, even if they are not initially sexual. If my wife procrastinates on the sensate focus exercises, then I will suggest we do them while we are at the hotel this weekend.
I have backed off of being the person doing the "pushing" in trying to fix the relationship.
I have now turned that over to the two therapists.
I almost feel sorry for my wife, in that she has an individual sex therapist and we have a couples/relationship concelor who is actually a noted sex therapist and focuses on sex therapy with couples. So my wife is being professionally challenged regarding her negative attitudes toward sex on both an individual basis and a group basis. If she can hang in their, then I really do expect there to be serious change for the better.
As I said, still no sex or serious touching from my wife, but I have high hopes for that to change in the not too distant future. I need to re-read No More Mr. Nice Guy and remain a little bit aloof and definately not needy for sex or touch (even though I am.)
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I guess this is becoming my blog. Life seems to be a roller coaster.
This past weekend, my wife and I took off a did some winery visiting and wine tasting and stayed in a hotel away from home. It was fun to get away......until the reality set in.
Just before we left I asked my wife if she wanted to look at the Sinclair Institute video we were given as an assignment, as I wanted to take it with us to watch. She is the only one who knows where it is. She said that she would not watch it and that we were not taking it with us. I didn't push it as I wanted to have a good time.
The first night, I asked if she had read the material given to us by our therapist on sensate focus exercises as we hadn't yet done thee exercises and I thought that this might be a good time to start them. My wife said she hadn't read the materials from our last therapy session (January 16th)and yet our next therapy session is coming up on January 27th. I asked is she wanted to do the sensate focus exercises, if I explained them to her. She cautiously asked me to explain them.
I explained the purpose of the exercises and that the ones we had been given were divided into a three-week setting with the first week starting with the touching of the face, lips, and head, then later in the first week touching of the body excluding the breast and genitals. The second week was to do the exercises from the first week, but add touching of the breasts and genital without coming to climax or intercouse. The third week was to do everything in the first two weeks, but add mutual manual stimulation to climax and when ready add intercourse.
My wife immediately said that she was not going to commit to anything that required intercourse within three weeks. I told her that I was not going to force her to do anythig she was not willing to do.
I then said that I would like to do the exercise we had been given which is just the touching of the head, lips and face. The first step is to take our clothes off and then taking turns focusing on touching and being touched. She flipped out and said that there was no way she was taking her clothes off in front of me!
So much for the exercises on Saturday night. Saturday night, after a while with her fully clothed, in her flannel sleep pants and shirt, we held each other. Sunday morning I gave my wife a 40 minute foot massage. When it was over, she jumped out of bed and took a shower and got dressed. I was just sitting there in my underwear wondering what the hell had just happened. Not even a thank you. During the massage I had requested and gotten feedback as to higher on the foot, to the left or right and more or less pressure, but when she realized it was over.....she was gone.
Last night (Sunday) I reminded her that back in late October, we had talked about my needing to be touched and she had told me that the reason she won't touch me is that it always leads to sex. At the time, I did a 180, and told her that I would not under any circumstance have sex with her for 2 months until the first of January so that she could explore touching me with no fear of sex. Well the first of January came and went. She has touched me, but only in the most non-sexual of ways.....putting her feet under my knee or legs when we go to bed; reaching out and putting a hand on my arm and occasionally a hug that doesn't involve any squeezing or body movement. I reminded her the my promise of no sex ended on January 1st and told her that I had asked her on January 2nd for us to talk about my promise to her expiring and what she felt we should do next. No discussion happened. I again told her on January 12th that I would like to talk to her about my promise of no sex for two months expiring. That was a few days before our first therapy session (January 16th). Last night (January 24th)I asked if we could talk about what we should do now that my promise of no sex had expired.
Well that was just too much for her. She hit the roof and told me I just didn't seem to understand how hard this was on her. Didn't I realize that was what we were doing in the therapy sessions? I said, I didn't as, I was answering and responding to the therapist's questions. I said that I now that I understand her perspective I will bring things up at the therapy session rather that are important to me rather than waiting for them to be raised by the therapist. Then the crying really started and she tried to make me feel like she was a victim.
What an emotional roller coaster! After the first therapy session, I felt like there was hope and we were making progress. Now, after I realize that my wife is not doing any of the exercises suggested by the therapist, I feel there is little hope. I now feel like if I try to remind her of the exercises we are given, I am the "bad guy."
I now intend to bring up two issues during our next therapy session: (1) If my wife doesn't initiate doing the exercises we are given, what should I do? Should I try to initiate the exercises and be rejected by my wife, or should I just withdraw and wait for the therapist to handle this? and (2) Should there be any initiation on my part of stating my physical needs and feeling outside of a therapy session or asking my wife about her plans toward integrating sex back within our relationship?
My mantra for the moment:
This is a marathon and not a sprint! I love my wife and want our marriage to work. I need to back off and let the therapist set the pace of what we do. I need to be supportive of my wife's changes and attempts at change; and do things for her that make her feel loved in her languages of love. I need to tell her I appreciate her acts of love she shows me, even if they are not in my languages of love. I need to focus on her actions and not her words.
This is a marathon and not a sprint! I love my wife and want our marriage to work. I need to back off and let the therapist set the pace of what we do. I need to be supportive of my wife's changes and attempts at change; and do things for her that make her feel loved in her languages of love. I need to tell her I appreciate her acts of love she shows me, even if they are not in my languages of love. I need to focus on her actions and not her words...........
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Shes biting your head off anytime you mention 'intercourse','sex' or 'no clothes'. These seem to be real hot triggers for her. (Something to mention to the therapist, perhaps). Perhaps the sensate focus exercises are being resisted because they could lead to closeness - and as you've pointed out before she fights if closeness is possible.
You might want to extend the sensate focus programme - instead of being 3 weeks, make it 9. Start with foot massage in week 1 (for both of you) then gradually introduce other non-threatening touch on a week by week basis. (Hands, head, back and so on). It's important for her to reciprocate though.
As for doing the exercises\videos, perhaps you could say 'I'm going to watch the X video now, you can join me if you want.' Make it really low key and non-threatening - but you're showing leadership.
You say in your first post that it got a lot worse, recently (last couple of years). Did something dramatic happen?
Shes biting your head off anytime you mention 'intercourse','sex' or 'no clothes'. These seem to be real hot triggers for her. (Something to mention to the therapist, perhaps).....
...As for doing the exercises\videos, perhaps you could say 'I'm going to watch the X video now, you can join me if you want.' Make it really low key and non-threatening - but you're showing leadership.
You say in your first post that it got a lot worse, recently (last couple of years). Did something dramatic happen?
Thank you!
I intend to bring up with the therapist and my wife, both what my role should be in doing the exercises (exhibit leadership or leave that to my wife) and make sure that my wife explains her perspective on what happened, so if nothing else I can try to understand her perspective on what is going on. Yes, I do think that she has some real emotional minefield issues that are easy for me to step on. Your suggested approach on the video sounds better, thank you.
Finally, as to something dramatic happening last year. The only thing, that might be considered a "dramatic outside event" was the announcement of my oldest son getting engaged to be married and ultimately getting married in the third quarter of 2009. He has known the woman for about 5 years and we both love her dearly. I don't think that was the underlying problem, but I don't know what caused the changes.
I would probably expect it was a combination of my no longer willing to stand rejection from her, my not understanding how she needs to be told she is loved in her language of love and her inhibition/body image problems combined with turning 60. Actually, maybe turning 60 could be part of this. It is a major point in one's life.
I have been concerned that there may be an underlying medical reason and insisted that my wife go to a woman doctor who specializes in low libido and women's health issues. While my wife has not yet gotten her blood work results back, we are expecting them in about two weeks. From the doctor's physical examination of my wife there were no obvious medical issues. But it will really be the blood work that will say whether there may be any underlyling medical issues.
Thank you again and good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Exhibiting leadership is really your only option. You don't have the choice of leaving it to your wife; she doesn't see the need and will not lead.
With the sensate exercises you're talking about, that might leave you without many options. I don't know that you can do those by yourself. Maybe it would be a good idea to compromise and do the first few sessions with clothing, maybe removing only a few items of clothing after that and working your way up to nudity. Her aversion to touch seems to be extreme. Actually, she sounds like she's scared to death. It would be interesting to take her pulse and blood pressure when you start talking about touching or being naked together.
With the video, it's easier. You watch the video without her if necessary, but not hidden from her. Watch it in the living room and invite her to join you. If she doesn't, go ahead anyway. She may join you, she may act like nothing happened, or she may react with the same fear and anger as before, but at least you're doing something.
I don't know whether this would be an issue for you, but I know that one thing that helped bring my wife around was when I made an effort to slow down and give her a lot of time to make up her mind about everything. It sounds like you've been trying to give her a lot of space, but maybe too much. There's a balance between an open-ended "let's try this if you're ready sometime" and "we've got an hour before dinner, let's take our clothes off." About one day's warning worked best for my wife.
At first, it felt like I was admitting that it would take a day or so for her to steel her nerves for the hateful chore of touching her husband, but with time I felt better and better.
In reviewing this, I am again struck by the theraputic value of posting things and this is again too long, but.....
Originally Posted By: SillyOldBear
Exhibiting leadership is really your only option. You don't have the choice of leaving it to your wife; she doesn't see the need and will not lead.
....Her aversion to touch seems to be extreme. Actually, she sounds like she's scared to death. It would be interesting to take her pulse and blood pressure when you start talking about touching or being naked together.
...I don't know whether this would be an issue for you, but I know that one thing that helped bring my wife around was when I made an effort to slow down and give her a lot of time to make up her mind about everything. It sounds like you've been trying to give her a lot of space, but maybe too much. There's a balance between an open-ended "let's try this if you're ready sometime" and "we've got an hour before dinner, let's take our clothes off." About one day's warning worked best for my wife.
At first, it felt like I was admitting that it would take a day or so for her to steel her nerves for the hateful chore of touching her husband, but with time I felt better and better.
Thanks for your advice, I think some of it is really great and wish I would have thought of it! And yes she is and was scared to death.
We had our second therapy session last night. Afterwards I took my wife out to dinner as she needed a break to unwind.
In the therapy session we talked a lot about my wife's aversion to touching and her not doing the sensate focus exercise. During the therapy session I specifically asked my wife and the therapist jointly what should I do, when we are given a therapy assignment and my wife doesn't do it. Should I take leadership and try to start the exercise or just let it slide? My wife's comment was something like, the therapist is not her boss, so everything suggested is "optional" and she will only do it if she wants to. My statement was that I wanted the therapy to work, as I wanted to save our marriage. I knew I couldn't change my wife and I didn't want to control my wife, but I was not going to stay in a marriage where my basic needs were not being met. I told them both that I have a commitment to myself that I will have my basic sexual and touching needs met by my next birthday (early Jan 2011) or I will end this marriage. This had been discussed briefly in our previous session.
The therapist used that to discuss why my wife had not read the sensate focuse exercises and been willing to participate in the exercise. Ultimately the therapist asked my wife if she wanted to learn how to touch me or if she wanted to be divorced. Then she asked my wife what kinds of touch could she perform on me. My wife finally said she could massage my back. The therapist then negotiated what we would each wear during the massage. Next the therapist (with laser precision) asked my wife when over the next two weeks would my wife would massage my back. That got my wife defensive, but finaly she said on Sundays. The therapist then relayed that my wife had objected to things I had brought up late at night when we first go to bed as the wrong time; so what would be the right time for my wife to massage my back on Sunday. She finally got my wife to settle on a specific time on Sunday mornings that she will massage my back and that I will give my wife a massage before that time. No sex, no nakedness, just loving massage with two-way communication as to how it feels.
The therapist then told me to let my wife take the initiative in fulfilling her promises to me, made in the session and if my wife doesn't take the initiative that she will ultimately have to live with the consequenses of broken promises(tough love!). It was impressive to see my wife directed by her own self-interest into taking "measurable steps" that if left to my wife, would have been totally avoided. I learned alot in negotiating with my wife through just listening and watching last night.
One of the things that came up in the discussion was that the 40 minute foot massage I gave my wife; where when it was over she ran for the shower leaving me in my underwear sitting on the hotel room bed, wondering what had just happened. Well it turns out that not only did my wife like the foot massage, but it arroused her to the point where she started to think that sex with me might be enjoyable, which is where she got really scared and bolted to be by herself taking a shower with a locked bathroom door. I knew it was a weird experience, but now I understand why. And yes my wife does have some real issues that she needs to overcome. (Funny that once upon a time, early in our relationship, she enjoyed being naked with me and having sex. How times do change.)
The therapist and my wife discussed body image and fear of being seen naked. She gave my wife some affirmations to say about her body as an exercise for just my wife to do. The therapist also asked if my wife had ever masturbated. My wife said that no she never had (that both did and did not surprise me). The therapist asked if my wife had had orgasms and my wife said that yes she had (I was pretty sure she had had orgasms, as I had felt the vaginal muscle contractions of her orgasms on many ocassions). She asked my wife if she wanted to have intercourse with me prior to my 62nd birthday. My wife said yes she did. She suggested that my wife get a kegel exerciser and use it to strenghten her muscles for future intercourse with me. Then she told me that I needed to masturbate to stay functional for when intercourse happens with my wife.
We also discussed my wife not watching the Sinclair Institute sex education video. I like your suggestion about watching it in the living room by myself. What I did, was ask my wife where the video was, so I could take it with us to a hotel we were going to last weekend associated with a trip we took. Last Saturday morning while packing, my wife said something to the effect of absolutely not. So I didn't take the video on the trip. I watched it on Sunday night after we returned home by myself, but in our bedroom, while my wife was reading a romance novel. I didn't push her to watch it. The reason I didn't watch it in the living room at home(which would have been better) was because our oldest son and his wife were staying with us temporarily while visiting.
The therapist asked if books, pictures, or articles would be a better way for my wife to gather information on healthy sex techniques and practices, if she couldn't watch a video. My wife said that her preferred method would be to talk about them rather than read or view that kind of informaton. The therapist said that it was good that I watched the video and that the future video's she gives us I can watch and if my wife wants to watch, that is fine, or we can just go over the material verbally in a session. My impression of the interaction was that the therapist took what my wife said at face value, made her live with the statements and then figured out how to accomplish the same thing differently, but offered my wife a way to gracefully retreat in watching any future video's with me.
My wife then said that she was afraid. She was afraid that she could never be sexual enough for me and that she was going to be overwhelmed by everything that was happening. The therapist, really didn't allow her to "play victim" at all. It was all very professional and "what do you thing will happen" and "what do you want the long term result to be?" The therapist then quizzed me at to what were my sexual limits on what I wanted. I explained that I thought that I would be in heaven if I had intercourse three times a week and to be vigorously hugged and touched on the other days. I was asked why intercourse just three times a week and not twice a day. I explained that when I had previousl really had vigorous vaginal sex with my wife, it bruised my penis and it was sore the next day and that sex within a day of really vigorous sex with my wife didn't feel good. The therapist then pushed my wife as to if she had ever had sex with me frequently early in our marriage. My wife said yes and that it had been three times a week. The therapist then pointed out that my wife was capable of meeting my needs and my wife didn't need to be afraid as she had been able to satisfy them at one point in her life. Again, this sex therapist is earning every penney we are paying her from my perspective.
You are very right about the trying to bring things up at least a day ahead of time, if at all. The "...we've got an hour before dinner, let's take our clothes off..." approach is just not going to work and will just create a fight or flight response in my wife. The advice you and others have given me is to back off and not push so hard. I need to keep repeating my new mantra "this is a marathon and not a sprint" and that I need to give my wife some space and time. Your advice is right on.
At the end of the session the therapist repeated the exercises she had given to my wife and to the both of us. She included the specific time commitments and acts that my wife had agreed to. It was up to my wife to keep her promises and I was not to remind her or step in if my wife choose not to keep her promises. The therapist asked us to email her halfway to our next session and provide her with an update on which of the things we had done. The therapist also asked if she could call my wife after the email and chat for 5 minutes about how we were doing. My wife agreed to all of it. Then the therapist helped us create a mental visual image of a sexually happy couple and asked us to focus on this image over the coming weeks.
I feel that the therapist has stepped in to be the person who does the reminding on the promises and that (from reading between the lines of what the therapist said) what I viewed as "leadership" was just initiating a destructive fighting sequence with my wife. I feel that the therapist wants to break any kind of "demon-relationship dance" between my wife and myself by stepping between us on doing the exercises. Part of me wonders if I was truly stepping in to "leadership role" or was being sucked into a fight by my wife over my wife's lack of action. That thought will keep me awake at night for a few weeks.
I am really impressed with the sex therapist we are seeing and feel she is a no-nonsense lady who isn't going to let my wife (or me) play any games. I am so happy about that!
I like your idea about the heart rate and blood pressure measurement, but think I will not bring those up. But as you suggested, I'll bet the readings would go sky high anytime touching, sex or getting naked are approached.
Again on this emotional roller coaster, but I am excited about the future. I will see how reality rears its head and be taking a more "passive" role for the next few weeks. I guess I will try re-reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and working harder on GAL, plus making sure I keep up with the exercises that the therapist has given me.
Thanks again for the support.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
It was up to my wife to keep her promises and I was not to remind her or step in if my wife choose not to keep her promises. The therapist asked us to email her halfway to our next session and provide her with an update on which of the things we had done.
Interesting. I wouldn't have predicted that. But your therapist seems to be so excellent that I wouldn't even question it for now. I'd trust her a great deal.
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I like your idea about the heart rate and blood pressure measurement, but think I will not bring those up. But as you suggested, I'll bet the readings would go sky high anytime touching, sex or getting naked are approached.
No . . . it would be interesting, but it would be a very bad idea. And I don't think we'd be surprised at the outcome. Your therapist may be trying to keep your wife from using her fear as an excuse not to improve the marriage, which is good. But I think it's good that you have an understanding of how frightened she is, because it's hard to to be bitter and angry in this situation. Again, there's a balance to be found between the kind of bitterness that slowly makes you hate your wife and want to walk away on the one hand, and the kind of weakness that makes you want to tell her it's OK and hold her hand when she's hurting you.
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I am really impressed with the sex therapist we are seeing and feel she is a no-nonsense lady who isn't going to let my wife (or me) play any games. I am so happy about that!
Really . . . I don't know if you realize how hard that is to find. There are no sex therapists within an hour and a half of my home, as far as I can tell, and I live halfway between two major cities and very near our state capital. If you've seen others talking about trying to find a sex therapist (or a marriage counselor who would rather save a marriage than guide people through a really aware, amicable divorce) you probably do realize it. I wish you could recommend this therapist, but I realize that might compromise your own anonymity (and what would your wife's reaction to that be?)
