DanceQueen, I have to agree with most of what you say. And it means a lot to me because you were in the same situation, so it's not as theoretical as it is for other people giving me advice. Just like so many people say they'd dump their spouse immediately if they caught them cheating. And in reality, many don't do so because they never pictured what they'd be giving up, or that the situation could be salvaged. So, all too often friends give advice like "get out of the marriage", as you know. Not happy in marriage, well, then happier out of the marriage. The logic is so simple when it's not YOUR marriage.
Originally Posted By: DanceQueen
So all the time I was making sure we had happy family group memories, was now a "fake" time in their minds, because they can see now and look back and realize it was "fake".
I still disagree with this. It applies to parents who don't get along at all. Otherwise, I don't think that what happens in their parents' bedroom is the main determinant of the fakeness of family events, especially as seen by the kids, or even the parents for that matter. If you want to talk about self-justification, now that sounds like the kind of thing people say in order to feel better about their divorce. I don't buy it.
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What I should have done was leave much, much earlier, gone straight into couples counseling, have some very direct discussions about our lives, our love life, and our future goals, and decide when we, our children and our marriage were all very young whether should pursue our own marriage or not.
And, as you know, I did just that, much earlier, straight into couples counseling, and we had some very direct discussions.
To continue with what DQ might describe as wallowing in self-justification...
If I were to separate or divorce, I don't see how the steps I'd realistically take would be effective or rewarding. I've been told I should live apart and not date for a year and while I "learn about myself", or "discover myself", which sounds about as exciting as a cold hamburger, not to mention utterly sexually frustrating. So, that's not happening, certainly not that way.
And if I did separate and lived in an apartment, I'd still be spending a lot of time with my kids and perhaps even my ex-wife with all the common things we have. I guess I'd use the apartment for having sex with my dates. The whole thing sounds comical, if not fun. But splitting up our finances and things, sounds like a royal pain in the neck, and waste of money.
You said: "I still disagree with this. It applies to parents who don't get along at all. Otherwise, I don't think that what happens in their parents' bedroom is the main determinant of the fakeness of family events, especially as seen by the kids, or even the parents for that matter. If you want to talk about self-justification, now that sounds like the kind of thing people say in order to feel better about their divorce. I don't buy it."
My ex-h and I got along just fine, were sweet and loving and affectionate to each other. What my kids now see, is that we had no passion.
I don't see why you don't get this. With no passion and no sex life, it WAS fake. My husband and I were family, the same way brothers and sisters are family...but we were not romantically in love and had no real sex life, which was eventually the demise of our marriage. THIS is what the kids see now...they look back and see our life was nice, loving, affectionate, but not sexual and therefore it eventually failed.
Kids will grow up and realize for themselves that a marriage needs to include a sex life and passion, and if it doesn't, it is not a happy or fulfilling marriage. Your marriage is NOT fulfilling to you, even though parts of your marriage do work. If your marriage WAS fulfilling to you as it is right now, you would not be getting sex elsewhere. Your kids will know this in the future, it will be obvious to them...whether you want to believe this or not is still just a fog you are in.
I always thought my kids would admire me for giving it my "all" even while my needs weren't getting met. Instead, they just wonder why their father and I stayed in a sexless marriage for so long, "just for them". They would have rather that we either fix our problem, or just move on. You'll just have to trust me on this, I'm not talking just to talk.
You said: "And, as you know, I did just that, much earlier, straight into couples counseling, and we had some very direct discussions."
No, you didn't do what I actually said, because included in my description was "what I should have done was leave much, much earlier". You think you've done what you should have, but you haven't. You should have left to make it clear you weren't going to accept a sexless marriage, and THEN tried to work on it. You still have not made it clear to her that you will not live like this, because you are still justifying your cheating.
You said: "And if I did separate and lived in an apartment, I'd still be spending a lot of time with my kids and perhaps even my ex-wife with all the common things we have."
Yes, and when I finally did leave my ex-h, I did spend a lot of time still at the family home, with the family, we still did all holidays and birthdays together...what is your point?
You said: "But splitting up our finances and things, sounds like a royal pain in the neck, and waste of money."
Yep, it is the worst pain the butt you can imagine, on top of the later fun and games that come with the final divorce. It was the worst thing I've personally ever been through. We are all here trying to help you AVOID this ... but the first step may be separation before you can actually avoid divorce.
And as for my situation now...my kids are happy, my ex-h is happy, my new husband is happy, and I AM HAPPY. Was I "happy" before in my sexless marriage? No, because I couldn't experience sex except through cheating. I deluded myself into thinking I was happy...but in seeing what happiness within marriage actually involves now by experiencing it, I realize it was all a sham, as I keep trying to tell you.
DQ, you're convincing. I see what you're saying. I've lost the proper perspective because I'm so used to my current situation. A sexless marriage seems kind of "normal" to me, while a sexual marriage seems like what newlyweds do. The kids hear Jay Leno joking about how the woman has a headache, etc. Or his joke about the true story with the woman who wanted sperm to be extracted from her husband who had just died in a car accident. Jay joked about the irony that only after the guy died was the woman interested in his sperm.
People "get" these jokes because sexless marriages are more or less the norm. Or so it seems to me when I don't give it much thought.
So in that context, I really have a hard time seeing how it matters so much what the parents do in the bedroom. I think my kids all know my wife has a "headache" all the time when it comes to sex, totally in accordance with the "norm" established by the Jay Leno jokes. Sure, the kids might realize it could be a little better, but I don't think they're running around feeling like their life is a fake sham just because mom has "headaches" with dad.
...did it really matter if I just got a quick sexual thrill now and then from other than my husband? It was simply a thrill, what was the big damn deal? Certainly my taking care of my entire family was showing my true colors and the thrill was just a side thing that I "needed" because my husband didn't give me what I "needed". I "needed" it you see, therefore because it was a "need" of mine I was entitled to get that "need" met.
Feeling entitled or not hasn't been so much the issue. I'm not sure you understand what it's like to deal with a really strong HD. A lot of deprivation can lead to a sense of desperation where you do things that, looking back, you can hardly believe you took the risks. I never realized that when I decided to "hang tough" and be celibate and work it out. When I say desperation, I mean constant fantasizing and anticipation of sexual scenarios that could happen. And the more I resist, the more tempting the forbidden sexual fruit. It's like not trying to think of the pink elephant in the living room. If I do anything boring, my thoughts drift to possible sexual encounters all day long.
In sharp contrast, when I'm in a regular sexual relationship, I feel free of all this, as I'm secure in knowing I'll have fulfillment soon, and my fantasies are focused around that next encounter with the appropriate partner.
Which is why I can't take seriously suggestions like being single for a while and not dating for a year until "I know myself better". People who suggest things like stay out of dating because you don't want a rebound partner and all that... people who can pull off that kind of sustained sexual celibacy must be sexually dead in the first place, or so it would seem to me.
You said: "but I don't think they're running around feeling like their life is a fake sham just because mom has "headaches" with dad"...
No ssmguy, they don't right now because you are hiding it from them, but in the future when they are adults, they will realize it then. They will also likely realize you are a cheater, and they will NOT condone your behavior.
You keep giving examples of how the world sees marital sex. Well I'll give you some opposite examples. When I was married before and my kids were young, two of their favorite shows were the Simpsons and Malcolm in the Middle. In both of these shows, the parents enjoy a particularly good sex life, even though they have other problems. There are many examples in both shows of their wonderful sex lives. There are examples of how they are wonderfully naughty toward each other, while the kids have no clue they share this beautiful, secret sexual life.
In one episode of Malcolm in the Middle, Hal (the father) was talking with a group of his guy friends, and they were all being very competitive about how much of this or that they have. How much money, how much vacation time, how many golf clubs, that kind of thing...and Hal is poor and was always the lowest on this list of "things" these married men had. Until it came to sex. "How many times per week do you get to have sex with your wife" was the question. Hal answered "oh, once or twice". Everyone else said he was lucky to get it once or twice a week, and Hal said "oh I thought you meant PER DAY...yeah we get it once or twice per day". And suddenly he was the king of the men for that moment, as he had more of the one thing they all wanted.
Now, this may seem to support your point...but it actually supports mine. The marriage in Malcolm in the Middle is happy and middle-classed Americans, with a healthy wife who has a healthy sex life. This is certainly not an extreme exception, or else it would never be understood by the millions of viewers who loved this show for nearly a decade.
Same with the Simpsons...no one can really understand why Marge puts up with all of Homer's shortcomings...unless you are a woman who is sexually in love with a man, like I am. THEN you can understand how a man has sexual worth to her. This woman is not totally out there in space as only one example, again, or else the millions of viewers who made this show possible would not have related to it at all.
My kids always realized, because I told them directly, that a good sex life is important. They assumed at that time that I must be having a good sex life, too. Little did they know then, that I wasn't...but of course now they get it in retrospect.
And because of my coaching, they understood the sexual humor in their two shows, Simpsons and Malcolm. It was not unusual in their minds to see a mom who was a total sex pot, there it was right there on Sunday evenings on prime time family TV shows.
You said: "Which is why I can't take seriously suggestions like being single for a while and not dating for a year until "I know myself better".
Personally I think if you leave your wife, you should not get into a RELATIONSHIP for a while, but you should chase all the unattached sex you can possible handle.
You said: "In sharp contrast, when I'm in a regular sexual relationship, I feel free of all this, as I'm secure in knowing I'll have fulfillment soon, and my fantasies are focused around that next encounter with the appropriate partner."
You are never in a "regular sexual relationship" with a mistress, ssmguy. Sorry. This is NOT a "regular" sexual relationship by any means. It is a hollow and cheap fantasy with happy endings, but which will rob you of any chance to have a "real" sexual relationship.
And one more point...please take note that while Leno may joke about how the wife has headaches...he will NOT joke that it is "ok for dad to have a mistress or use a jack shack". Right? So yes while your kids may learn from the world that it is sometimes normal for a woman to have a lower sex drive than a man, they will NOT CONDONE or believe that you had any right to cheat on their mother because of this. Why can't you make that connection?
You said: "I'm not sure you understand what it's like to deal with a really strong HD. A lot of deprivation can lead to a sense of desperation where you do things that, looking back, you can hardly believe you took the risks."
Again, you don't know that much of my story. I was constantly cheating in one way or another. I was constantly thinking of sex in one way or another. I was chasing the thrill all the time, mentally, and then physically would follow.
As usual, you seem to think you are unique and that no one else would understand your plight. This is all justification. I felt the same way, and realize now it was simply justification.
