Why are some of the tactics in dealing with MLC considered being a doormat?
In a NORMAL situation, the one who's out to lunch knows very well what he/she is doing, and the one who is on the receiving end of their abuse, is too afraid to stand up and say "That's enough". In a NORMAL situation, the backing down, waiting around, etc, WOULD be something to view as doormat behavior on the part of the person who really wants their marriage to come back together, when, really it's better to confront to blow it all out in the open in the hopes that the conflict would be resolved. Yet, the SAME lessons are learned as in MLC, if the LBS is willing to learn after the abuser/cheater has left or turned back to the marriage....strange thought, isn't it?
BUT MLC is NOT a normal situation.
You're looking at possibly one of two things or both running tandem; Hormonal changes that come from nature Emotional changes that come from life
When someone says you're being a doormat if you have a spouse in MLC, they are clearly wrong; to push a confrontation too soon could mean the marriage would end without answering all the "What if" questions, at least on the side of the SANE spouse. And the growing of both people could be halted, along with both people being scarred, possibly for the rest of their lives, as each one never learns what this opportunity puts before them. Yet, people who really don't understand, won't see this; most are only concerned with having things back "the way they were before." And that may not happen. Many people don't understand what MLC entails, and therefore it is easy to come down on someone trying to keep their marriage together. And honestly, Jack; many people understand the concept of attempting to keep what you have, as you can do much worse, and so they try to pull what's left of their marriage back together, utilizing this "doormat" behavior for a period of time...like I said; while some people would call it "doormat" behavior, it is those that don't understand that say that.
Each person is different and what works for one will NOT work for another; For example, this might happen to one couple, and the woman show such a great love for her husband regardless of how he treats her that she draws him back to her; he does as he is supposed to in the way of settling his issues, etc, makes the necessary changes, and they start over again from the ashes of the old marriage into a new, stronger marriage. Was SHE a doormat because she did that? No, she utilized what she had and it worked.
But it might not work on someone else like that..people are TOO complicated. What this little story I outlined doesn't say or explain is how love works; it's a choice, not a feeling and it's a letting go, and above all, Love, at times..must be tough...so it doesn't explain HOW she used LOVE to win him back; it just simply says she does...this was something I read a long time ago.
On the other hand, there are certain times in the journey, that stronger action needs to be taken in order to keep the MLC'er from putting into place cycling behaviors, that forever go around and around. The "doormat" behaviors must be exchanged for more of the confrontation sort; and that only comes when the time is right in this self same journey.
When trying to come out, the MLC'er tests the waters, much like a child does their parents at puberty. And just like the child must learn to respect their parents, the MLC'er must learn what is acceptable and not acceptable to their spouse in the way of behavior. And respect is gained or lost during this critical time. Some also try to go back to a behavior that is emotionally abusive, as they are coming back together, and that just cannot be. This is part of the learning that's done during the time in and coming out of the tunnel.
This is also when boundaries must be set and kept firmly. But only the LBS knows when that time is...no one can even come close to knowing when; that's when intuition comes into play at the darkest hour.
It is also a time I spoke of that entails being willing to lose all in order to possibly gain something better within the relationship/marriage.
I hope this helps..now to the next question:
Quote:
Why does the MLC LBS suggested to go dark or dim, instead of confronting the MLCer?
Again, to confront too soon will cause the MLC'er to run like the dickens the other direction, and repeated confrontations will literally push them out the door. I almost did that, Jack, and I'm speaking from experience. Going dark, allows not only the MLC'er the time and space needed to face their issues, and work forward, but it also allows the LBS the necessary break they need to keep walking their own journey..it also takes the pressure off BOTH parties.
But, a strange thing happens if the connection is still there, although faint..it also causes the MLC'er to "miss" what they had, and history can be a strong pull. Coupled with the LBS going on with their life AS IF and staying dark, it really can cause the MLC'er to begin to work their way back, and can cause them to awaken to the possibility they can lose their spouse...the changes the LBS goes through are NOT unnoticed by the MLC'er.
Somewhere, in that black hole, are feelings long buried; and the pulling away of a spouse that's gone dark, can be enough to cause the MLC'er to start their journey back to their spouse, although it is a long and painful journey for them.
A time of confrontation will come later on when the connection restrengthens itself, and the MLC'er is ready to face the damage they have caused not only to the marriage and spouse, but to themselves as well.
I hope this helps you, too. I cannot say I have all the answers, but I'm throwing in my two cents; as I think there are no clear cut answers for handling this Monster they call MLC.
Have a good one, Jack.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
Hi HB-Thank you for posting again-your insights are really helpful in putting things in context and providing perspective!
My H has been through all the stages of MLC(Up to acceptance) and back again. Dishes out alot of anger towards me and this hasn't dissipated. Being Dim(we have kids) has helped me but seems to have no effect on H. We are in the process of divorce and my hopes of salvaging this marriage are very, very slim. I still love my H, but am much more detached..don't really like the person/father he is right now.
I wonder what your thoughts/experience are about the effects of divorce on the MLCer. I know each person is unique, but I wonder if there ever seemed to be any kind of "MLC" response or script that goes with divorce?
M44 H46 T21 Married 16y D14 D12 Bomb 12/08(EA), (PA/Separation)1/09 to 5/09 Home/MC 5/09 to 12/09 Leaves 12/09 Files for Divorce Divorce final 6/30/10.
Friend-On D-day...they were missing one piece of paper. Judge tells them to reschedule and they go out into the hall. Her husband breakdowns in tears right there...complete breakdown. The are about 8 months into piecing. The finality of divorce was his rock bottom.
Another case-Wife just goes right through divorce and never blinks an eye...eventually marries OP
Third one-Most common one from my readings...Spouses rush to divorce...LBS remarries. WAS starts to come out of the fog 3-5 years later and realizes what has happened. Sometimes even tracking down LBS to apologize
There is no definitive script....other than working on yourself.
HB, your participation in this forum is a gift to us...thank you so much
I wonder if you (or anyone else) can comment on how having young children affects the WAS/MLC and LBS dynamics?
Like many parents on this forum, I haven't gone dark or even dim because I am trying to keep things as "normal" as possible for our young children. That means H seeing them once or twice daily, H frequently being with them in our family home, continuing the bedtime ritual that we both participate in most days, me making brief, pleasant small talk with H so that our children see friendly interactions, etc. H and I believe that these things are helping the children to cope with the situation.
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
HB, your participation in this forum is a gift to us...thank you so much
I wonder if you (or anyone else) can comment on how having young children affects the WAS/MLC and LBS dynamics?
Like many parents on this forum, I haven't gone dark or even dim because I am trying to keep things as "normal" as possible for our young children. That means H seeing them once or twice daily, H frequently being with them in our family home, continuing the bedtime ritual that we both participate in most days, me making brief, pleasant small talk with H so that our children see friendly interactions, etc. H and I believe that these things are helping the children to cope with the situation.
Since I was unsure where you had a thread, I chose to answer your question here...hopefully Jack won't string me up by my hamstrings for hi-jacking his thread, temporarily, LOL!!
Sweetie, you're much welcome, and I'm glad to be here for as long as I can be here. I've done much reading; and there is so much pain here...understandable considering the circumstances...my heart goes out to each and every one of you who is suffering with this. I have gone back and done some reading of the archives, and that seems to be another time and place(and it was); and I was surprised to find I'm posting the SAME kind of advice and insight I did then..nothing changed..not that it's supposed to in that regard, but the only other wisdom I'd gained was out of my own journey through MLC, and the ending, thereof. It expanded what I contained within my arsenal to help others.
I'd been deathly afraid that I wouldn't be able to help like I once did, but once I got started, memories started coming back of a time long before, and I think I'm all right now.
Ok; you're asking about young children and MLC...well, I didn't have a young child at home when my husband went through; our son was 15 or thereabouts..but I can tell you this:
What I have seen was the weirdest thing I ever saw; I'd learned about becoming "opposite" of what the MLC spouse was before the crisis...and the fact that he is still willing to interact with the children; tells me the connection with them is not closed.
How was he with the children BEFORE MLC?
He may be closed to YOU, but NOT them...and that is always a good thing. Many MLC husbands ignore and mistreat their children during that time..causing a great deal of hurt, distress and great damage because of the MLC'er's selfishness.
My husband ignored me totally, but tried his best to connect with our son; and couldn't understand why son didn't want anything to do with him, which provoked pursuit on my husband's part.
If I hadn't intervened with my son, and kept talking to him about the importance of forming a relationship with his dad; no relationship between the two would be in existence today. My husband NEVER knew I did that to help him; and I never told him.
Yours is the second situation I've seen in the present time that it may be because of the connection with the children; you two may make it through intact; coming back together into a new marriage given time and his coming through the tunnel.
I could be wrong on both counts.
On the other hand; your husband still has love in his heart for the children or you couldn't BRIBE or FORCE him to do what he's doing to keep things normal for the children; I'm being that blunt, as their selfishness normally knows NO bounds when it comes to what THEY want and what they THINK THEY need. OR, and I have to ask this question...are you making him do this for the kids' sake? And it really doesn't matter either way..the MLC'er has to WANT to do something or they just won't do it.
The path the MLC'er is on, is, of course a solitary path, one, where they will do what they think they have to do when they have to do it. And they will run over anyone who stands in their way, even their own small(or big) children.
How are the children coping?
There are times I get so frustrated when I'm reading, especially about the children; who didn't ask to come into this world, and certainly didn't ask for the breaking of the family to happen.
I know children are resilient, but still, it's so not fair to them.
I realize that I haven't written very much; but I recognize that I don't have the necessary experience with the small children being involved in this type of dynamic.
I hope that what I have penned will help you with this.
Always feel free to ask more questions..questions are always good; you can't get answers if you don't ask them.
Much love, HB
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
HB, I hope it's OK to ask a question. First, I would like to thank you for posting again. Your wisdom is very much appreciated.
Why is it that the MLCer seems to be astounded that their own children would have a problem with what they've done. (My H moved in with ow 2 weeks after re meeting her.) H just can't understand why S23 hasn't talked to him since he left almost 5 months ago. H says that S23 just needs to grow up and accept the situation. H has also said that about D17 and D11.
After this first happened S26 wrote H a letter and said that he no longer respected him. They work at the same place and H came to him after reading the letter and said to S26, "I'm still your father and you will respect me."
Thanks so much for the reply HB . I wasn't intending to hijack Jack's thread, but rather to ask a general question that might be helpful for others in a similar sitch.
I'll take you up on your offer to ask more questions please . To expand on my question, I was wondering how the frequent contact and need to collaborate (when young children are involved) helps or hinders the separated MLC in progressing through the stages? And how does the LBS take care of herself without going dark/dim (because it's hard to coparent effectively while dark/dim)?
me: 42 | STBXH: 41 | T: 18 | M: 10 | separation: Jan 3, 2010 | they deserve better: S7 & D4 current thread: http://tinyurl.com/3y8sxcp .: first breathe, then heal, then start LIVING :.
This thread is for anyone who wants to impart their wisdom, insight.
HB, you know I am...piecing right? I mean, I'll always be piecing, but the dark days are WELL behind me.
The questions weren't because I needed an answer, but for the others here, an no one as farf as I am concderned is a 'doormat'. It is a fear that many LBS fear in themselves...hence the questions to dissuade them of that stupid and false notion.
Many new peope here are coming from other boards where the tactics are VERY different, and our actions here in MLC ARE considered to be doormatish to others giving advice else where.
Flow, as a dad of 2 boys when this happened to me, when I went dark, I keep all conversations with her strictly about our boys and bills only. Anything else, any time she tried to talk about some bullsith fully crap, I said "So we are done talking then?" and said goodbye.
Before going dark, and after we had established a schedule for her seeing the boys and such. and we stuck to it afterward.
It is hard not to hope that the children will somehow bring them back to you...It likely will NOT be the reason...moreimportantly, you do NOT want them to be the reason he comes back to you. YOU want to be the reason he comes back, not you mommy skills.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
SA, I will drag your post over to my thread and answer you there.
flow mom, I will do the same with yours.
I'm sorry, Jack...I knew this might happen sometime or another; so I'm trying to head the rest of it off before someone else gets their thread hijacked.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
HB, you know I am...piecing right? I mean, I'll always be piecing, but the dark days are WELL behind me.
I knew you and your wife were out of this, was unaware you were in piecing..that explained why this was the only post I could find on you here in MLC. You were kind enough to visit my first thread here, and so I was returning the favor.
I am still getting used to the changed format of this board.
I didn't sense you wanted answers for yourself, Jack; you've already gotten yours...you were asking a couple of general questions; and questions are always good.
I apologize if you thought that I thought that YOU wanted answers..threads such as these were set up when I was here before for anyone to post their thoughts.
Out of habit, I usually do address the one who set up the thread, no matter what they want to know..or if it is for general purpose.
Sorry for any misunderstanding on my part.
Hope your enjoyed your getaway.
Remember, as each person is different, every MLC/Transition is different..what works for one may not work for another. Most of the time it is trial and error for ALL involved.
I cannot say I have all the answers, but I'm throwing in my two cents; as I think there are no clear cut answers for handling this Monster they call MLC. 
. I wasn't intending to hijack Jack's thread, but rather to ask a general question that might be helpful for others in a similar sitch. 