Having said all that, I do understand men and women are different – so perhaps it is possible for men to compartmentalise to the extent they can connect with a woman even though they still have a spouse or significant other in the picture … ???
From everything I've read here--and witnessed while my H had his own MLC emotional affair--men aren't so different from women in this respect. It's only possible for them to have one strong emotional connection at the time, and they have to hold off/distance themselves from their spouse/affair partner when they are with the other.
I think it's easily possible for people to be in love with more than one person at a time (I can just hear DQ responding "of course YOU can, you're a monster"). What parent isn't capable of loving more than one of their children at the same time. I find it hard to believe that romantic love is somehow naturally wired differently so we can be romantically in love with only one person at a time. I think it's what happens when people are "confused" and "in the fog" when they are in love with two people at the same time, and SOCIETY and THEIR SPOUSES say it's NOT OK. That's the reason I think people feel they cannot be in love with more than one person at a time, because it requires deception and dishonesty when it's not an open situation, and jealousy too (not that children aren't jealous of a parent's love for a sibling, but society thinks that's OK).
So, bunk. Both men and women are capable of being truly in love with more than one person at a time. It's just that they feel it's WRONG, that's all.
ssmguy said: "I think it's easily possible for people to be in love with more than one person at a time (I can just hear DQ responding "of course YOU can, you're a monster")."
Yes ssmguy, actually I used that exact type of logic when I was behaving like a monster and having affairs, too. And now I realize the flaw with that logic...
You cannot build true intimacy and trust with one person and achieve the higher levels of sexuality if you are split between two or more lovers. You don't need that type of intimacy in your other relationships, such as with children and siblings. Therefore, the logic doesn't hold when you are talking about a sex life versus love among all the others in your life.
Its not just that it is "wrong" to love more than one intimacy partner at once. Its that you will never go farther than the surface, you will not be able to rise above basic sexuality and achieve higher levels of it. I'm not talking about romantic love, either.
I guess you, ssmguy, just will not ever see what I am trying to talk about. You are steeped in your rationalizations, and that is what keeps you in a sexless marriage and getting only so-so sex on the side. I was in your shoes, and it eventually broke me down. Maybe you will just continue as you are forever, and will never get to feel and experience the type of true sexual intimacy I'm referring to.
DQ, you don't have to take EVERYTHING I say as being tightly tied to my own personal situation! I know it's difficult to hear what I say in a more general context, but give it a try sometime. I know you can do it! ;-)
Yes, I agree that you can't give two lovers the same kind of attention, and certainly not the emotions tied to feeling totally special and exclusive and always being available, and not sharing with someone else. Not to mention the element of time -- there isn't enough to go around.
Sounds like you at least agree that one can be "in love" with two people at the same time, and that that's what they call the "fog" or the "confusion". Not the deepest kind of love maybe, but certainly the kind of love one can encounter in the emotional roller-coaster world of dating. I certainly saw that myself -- one woman was in love with two guys, and realized she had to make a decision. It was very tough for her because she couldn't get herself to face the fact that it meant she had to "end" one of the relationships, and put to rest all the hopes, dreams, feelings, etc. with one of them. Her problem was that they were both great guys, so how does one decide? Now, you could say that was selfish of her, but once you get in that situation, it's still tough.
It's funny, my H trotted out the old "we love both our kids, so surely it's possible to love you and OW" line as well, while he was in his fog. Of course, I could see that the sort of love I was getting as long as he was having the EA was watered-down, remote, and one-sided. Once he got out of the fog, he came to that realization as well: you can't SHARE true, intimate love.
I think SSM guy is right, though, some people are capable of loving 2 people at once. The guy who molested me as a kid, for example, said he was in love with me as well as his wife. I'm sure he believed it, and believed he "couldn't help" falling in "love." I've come to understand that that was the greatest amount of love that he was capable of giving--he was too caught up in himself to care any more about the feelings of a child, or about the distress he caused his wife. Obviously, a person who truly & completely loved his wife would be incapable of hurting her by beginning the process of falling in love with someone else--that takes a purely selfish love. When your conscience tells you something is "wrong," SSMguy, there's usually a good reason for it.
However, since I'm sure Little Miss, like most people here, has no interest in trying to love 2 people at once (one can be enough work!), I'm not sure why this discussion of what doesn't work is cluttering up her thread? Sorry, Little Miss--how are things with you?
I think SSM guy is right, though, some people are capable of loving 2 people at once. The guy who molested me as a kid, for example, said he was in love with me as well as his wife.
Well, your sarcasm made me laugh, but that's certainly not the kind of "love" I meant. Though it well may be true and real, your choice of example is about like saying "most rapists are men", or "most murderers are men". And so, just what would your point be about men?
The woman I knew who was in love with two men at the same time, would not be more easily capable of being a child molester, I don't think! And I wouldn't say it was only because her love for either man was not "true love".
In other words, your example hardly qualifies as an argument about falling in love with two people at the same time. Unless you saying that the child molester who "falls in love" EXCLUSIVELY with his victim is in any way better?!
Quote:
I'm sure he believed it, and believed he "couldn't help" falling in "love."
You've lost me totally. It seems you're suggesting that someone who has an affair is a potential child molester, or more likely to than someone who "truly loves their wife".
Quote:
Obviously, a person who truly & completely loved his wife would be incapable of hurting her by beginning the process of falling in love with someone else--that takes a purely selfish love.
Yes, a man who loves his wife, and whose wife returns that love, is very unlikely to begin the process of falling in love with someone else.
Well I went out to dinner with Mr ImnotmarriedlikeyouthinkImmarried last night.
You were all so right.
I really thought he would tell me he and his wife are separated (and even in those circumstances I'd made a decision that I'd tell him to call me in 12 months when the divorce was finalised and he'd had some time to heal).
We had a great meal, lively, funny conversation, gorgeous wine (probably a bit too much of it) I was having a great time. Over desert he told me that he's been married for 27 years to a "wonderful, kind, loving woman who he has a close and committed relationship with”.
I’m like “what?” What the hell have you been doing pursing me then? He denied that he’s been pursing me. Claims he’s got dozens of women friends he has close friendships with and his wife knows about them. He was seriously trying to tell me that there was nothing improper with the level of contact he initiated with me (all the while trying to play footsie under the table). He said he respects me and thinks I’m an amazing, strong, intelligent, funny woman (I couldn’t agree with him more!!) he loves my company and I shouldn’t be so worried about anything dodgy (while his knee kept “bumping” into mine.) He even claimed he told his wife he was going out to dinner with me last night.
I ended up saying to him that I thought he was deluding himself. From my perspective he had been engaging in a emotional affair with me and that was as inappropriate as a sexual one. HE DID NOT GET IT. He was completely in denial. (and it was weird – he was trying to make it like I had misread his intentions or something … he seriously didn’t agree there was anything wrong with calling me several times a day, e-mailing daily, instant messaging for hours late at night).
I think what I’m most offended by is that he didn’t even try to justify himself. He didn’t even try to excuse his behaviour – he is convinced there’s nothing wrong with it.
I’m really disappointed in him. I respected him and thought he had more integrity (and more of a clue).
He walked me home and tried to kiss me goodnight!!!! I wanted to ask him what he thought his wife would think about that – but I was just so over it by then. (shaking my head)
I won’t be seeing him or speaking to him outside of a professional setting again.
Is it even possible that he just doesn't understand how inappropriate his behaviour is?
I've been thinking about it and he's nearly 50. I wonder if this is how mid-life crisis manifest. Men who are otherwise decent reasonable people develop friendships with women and maybe they don't even know it's happening - and wham - they're "in-love" and they think it's just evolved or meant-to-be and all of a sudden they're leaving their wives and destroying a whole family.
They are so unaware/unconcious of their behaviour and how it contributes to inappropriate relationship.
Is it even possible that he just doesn't understand how inappropriate his behaviour is?
He's insensitive and caught up in his own naive view of how it should work out. It's clearly inappropriate behavior in the context of your relationship with him. It doesn't sound to me like he understands or has enough experience to understand that there is a minority of other women who would welcome his behavior -- women who are looking for a no-strings-attached affair. He sounds like the typical misinformed guy who knows his boss had an affair "like this" and so he thinks his only problem is making this relationship into the same thing. He's making no effort to understand your situation and how you feel.
Quote:
I've been thinking about it and he's nearly 50. I wonder if this is how mid-life crisis manifest. Men who are otherwise decent reasonable people develop friendships with women and maybe they don't even know it's happening - and wham -
No, I think the mid-life crisis thing is way overblown and used as an excuse for a lot of stuff. People have affairs and marital screw-ups at all ages. When they happen in middle age, they're called MLC's. If they happen after 4 years, it's called the 4-year itch. If it happens shortly after marriage, it's called "it wasn't really a marriage after all". Everything has a name in retrospect.
In fact, there a plenty of people who go through middle age with no MLC whatsoever.
Claims he’s got dozens of women friends he has close friendships with and his wife knows about them.
I would make the same claim, though the number might be less than a dozen. But my wife not only knows about them, she's met them, and a couple of them are her best friends and they often go out shopping together without me, etc. My wife and I often have dinner as a double-couple with some of my female best friends and their husbands. Most of my closest friends are women, but I have a few male best friends too. It's been that way throughout my marriage, and that alone has never been a problem. I think it's made me more aware of the boundary issues, because I've certainly bumped into them, as I've been pursued by women too, though not in such a forward way as men often do.
Quote:
He was seriously trying to tell me that there was nothing improper with the level of contact he initiated with me (all the while trying to play footsie under the table).
Did you pull your foot away or in any indicate you did not like it? If you did not pull your foot away, you're telling him you DID think it was appropriate, even though you're thinking otherwise. I'm sensing big a disconnect somewhere here.
Quote:
He even claimed he told his wife he was going out to dinner with me last night.
Well, why don't the three of you go out together if you're just friends?
Quote:
I ended up saying to him that I thought he was deluding himself. From my perspective he had been engaging in a emotional affair with me and that was as inappropriate as a sexual one.
The issue for you is really not whether, in general, his behavior is inappropriate or not. You are not his moral policeman. The only question is, is it what you want? And apparently it's not, and that makes his behavior inappropriate with you. This is not what you are looking for. This is not what you want. I'm not sure if you've been clear enough about that with him, or if he's just dense and thinks all women are the same, and if he's ever gonna have an affair like his boss did, then he needs to be able to succeed in having an affair with you, because if he can't have one with you, how could he ever have an affair with anybody. Or something like that.
Quote:
there was anything wrong with calling me several times a day, e-mailing daily, instant messaging for hours late at night).
The point is YOU don't want it. As for it being generally "wrong", don't forget there are women who would welcome such deliciously "wrong" things. Oohhh, this is so WRONG (turn on!), etc. YOU DON'T WANT IT, period -- that's the only thing that matters.
Quote:
I think what I’m most offended by is that he didn’t even try to justify himself. He didn’t even try to excuse his behaviour – he is convinced there’s nothing wrong with it.
I think he's been watching too many movies, and has little experience with real women in this context. Too many 007 movies where James Bond wins over a seemingly at-first reluctant woman. Or lines from the movie "Spread", where the character played by Ashton Kutcher voices to the audience, "When a woman tells you you're not getting any, even before you make a move, you know you're getting it."
Did you pull your foot away or in any indicate you did not like it?
Of course I did. I would have walked home myself too, except there's military action here at the moment and it was unsafe.
It's interesting you say you sense a disconnect. I'm not pollyanna. I was engaging in flirting with him throughout the first part of the night. I was drinking and I had convinced myself that he was going to tell me he was separated from his wife.
I was kidding myself. I'm embarrassed and feel very silly.
