well that's an interesting definition- very interesting... I've just continued to post on the Newcomers list in my original post, folks- it's too much work to keep up with 2 threads. Link is below if you can comment anymore on this or other stuff I'm dealing with.
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
Unconditional Love, on the surface, looks the same as indifference.[/i] The Captain
We may have had this conversation earlier.
I have always felt that my black lab's love for me was as close to unconditional love as I would ever experience. I cried, as did my wife, when that dog died.
While at times when she slept in front of the fire place on a cold night it was indifference, but if that dog saw me put on my running shoes and getting read to go for a run it was anything but indifference. Sometimes when I came home after work, her response and joy in seeing me was almost overwhelming. It couldn't help but make me smile.
I realize that my wife or children will never greet me with the same enthusiasm. I am reminded of the saying that "I hope to become the man that my dog thinks I am" (or something like that). So the love of a good dog is probably not unconditional love, but it sure feels good and can be missed very much.
I do think that unconditional love can be more than indifference.
call me a romantic.
Last edited by Young at Heart; 03/26/1011:08 PM.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
Note that it does not say that it IS indifference. Only that it can look like it.
Let's say that for the less advanced soul, it looks like indifference because they cannot tell the difference
Cap
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
If only people had been breed over the past few thousand years to be able to give the kind of love, affection and devotion that we have selectively breed into our pets; relationships might be either a lot more complex or a lot easier.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I don't believe in unconditional love... that is ridiculous and fantasy movie stuff!
Jamie,
I may well be your husband. I have not read your story, but must say that my resentment is so strong sometimes that I feel like...
I have been married 15 years now. I gave my wife and ultimatum in Fall of '08 and we've had more sex since then, than our entire marriage combined. She has awakened to the pain it caused me. I will say this... You have no IDEA how it has affected his entire life from how he interacts with friends and family and your children to work production and ambition in life. He has been so hurt that if he's like me he has cried alone with tears of pain of feeling hopeless and lonely.
My wife has said the same to me... ie. she'll do it whenever and where ever anytime. The problem is that I don't believe her. Yeah, we've had more sex lately, but I cannot count the amount of rejections and the times she said she'll try or "I promis we'll have more." or "If you do this or that"... I fulfilled everyone of her requests to make it happen. In fall of '08 she had no more requests and I was done. I was so exhausted I turned apathetic and indifferent and said when the kids are graduated, I'm outta here!
She lied so many times about trying and doing it more I don't believe she has changed yet. We just had an arguement about her not making herself available at bed time. From not getting the kids to bed to coming to bed and then just rolling over.
The comment about your husband acting like a child? F--- yeah! I'm betting you acted like a child being forced our coerced into something, but your husband (if he was like me) knew you had a right to say no and you used and abused that right to extreme in your marriage.
I have yet to figure out why I get triggered by comments she'll make and other things she does because they all happened at times she would get at me for doing those same things (but it's ok for her to do them?) and at a time when she was refusing me nightly for years.
My libido is lower now than then. I am not sure if I suppressed it or that it is a natural occurance. I am 38 and in phenomanal shape, so it's not physical. I am do not want to toot my own horn, but I am goodlooking and have 2 small businesses that I run. She admires this like a mole on her hand, or atleast that is how she use to treat me.
What can she do? Make herself available. Come to bed expecting that I want it. If we don't it should be ok, and not to use it against me (which she does). I use to want it nightly, but sometimes I'ld rather sleep than to deal with my emotions. I've caught myself crying while in the act with real tears.
She can tell the kids that she needs me to give her a back rub and lock the door (she's never done anything like this).
She could give quick bjs now and then. She could do quickies in mid day weekends. These are things I've asked that would help. They haven't materialized at all.
Variations to just mission style. She could initiate. And she will have to do these things indefinitely until I am heeled. Menstration time she could do other things (still alludes her).
OK- I am HD- prob is I wasnt romantic for W...I was turned down so many times, I stonewalled, and waited for W to make advances on me...by the time I had truly checked out, I had established an EA- I was always dead set against D.
I was turned down so much, despite W telling me "you need to be more romantic" that I in no way had romantic feelings for her...it was very toxic.
Anyway...if you read my sitch- basically, my W was craving romance, she met a guy, and one day dropped the bomb- I SNAPPED right out of my FOG- BTW, the EA crumbled...
W had done the same thing as well...offered more sex, etc...I was just else where mentally.
Since the bomb I've been in hot pursuit.
Point is, there may come a time when you have to create the sense of loss for H.
I agree about learning of his LL's, W and I when she was fake piecing, expressed her LL's to me- I NEVER KNEW- acts of service (errands, washing car, etc), and PT...mine were PT and words of affirmation...
Do everything you can, don't give up, but don't make yourself too easy...
OK- I am HD- prob is I wasnt romantic for W...I was turned down so many times, I stonewalled, and waited for W to make advances on me...by the time I had truly checked out, I had established an EA- I was always dead set against D. I was turned down so much, despite W telling me "you need to be more romantic" that I in no way had romantic feelings for her...it was very toxic.W had done the same thing as well...offered more sex, etc...I was just else where mentally.
Well, it's eerie, my H could've written that. It's very sad and I feel bad for you- and him. It was never my intention to deliberately hurt him- maybe the same for your wife.
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Since the bomb I've been in hot pursuit.
Point is, there may come a time when you have to create the sense of loss for H.
Ok. Well if you see my main thread, somehow, without me trying to project this, he thinks I have moved on to someone else! Nevermind that I am still wearing my ring (he is not) and am not exactly disappearing in the middle of the night or anything. I think he actually thinks the DB forums are an OM or something, as he gets very agitated when he hears me typing away. I don't want to hurt him by having him believe I'm with someone else- I wasn't even trying to make him think that, just taking care of myself. AND, b/c he thinks that (sense of loss), he is fast-forwarding the process and now seeing an L tomorrow. It's very precarious- he feels loss and is full-speed ahead now to get out. So, I don't think that's working too well for me.
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I agree about learning of his LL's, W and I when she was fake piecing, expressed her LL's to me- I NEVER KNEW- acts of service (errands, washing car, etc), and PT...mine were PT and words of affirmation...
Well, I'm not sure how much effort to put into this now- if I'm not pursuing, why would I expend energy right now (maybe in the future when he's open to receiving it) on this?
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Do everything you can, don't give up, but don't make yourself too easy...
MEN WANT WHAT THEY CANT HAVE
It's so hard to know what actions to take to walk this line. I'm not sure he wants what he can't have- by refusing to have sex with me, he's put me pretty much off limits and thinks I'm moving on. He doesn't seem inclined to want me in any way. How do you account for that?
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
I may well be your husband. I have not read your story, but must say that my resentment is so strong sometimes that I feel like...
I have been married 15 years now. I gave my wife and ultimatum in Fall of '08 and we've had more sex since then, than our entire marriage combined. She has awakened to the pain it caused me. I will say this... You have no IDEA how it has affected his entire life from how he interacts with friends and family and your children to work production and ambition in life. He has been so hurt that if he's like me he has cried alone with tears of pain of feeling hopeless and lonely.
Actually, I do have an idea, though maybe not the same as living it myself. It made me cry when he described what this had done to him and I felt immense pain and regret. I sense that it is even much worse than he has let on- it's like I killed a piece of him. I feel very very bad for that. But I am not the only one who screwed up, either.
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My wife has said the same to me... ie. she'll do it whenever and where ever anytime. The problem is that I don't believe her. Yeah, we've had more sex lately, but I cannot count the amount of rejections and the times she said she'll try or "I promis we'll have more." or "If you do this or that"... I fulfilled everyone of her requests to make it happen. In fall of '08 she had no more requests and I was done. I was so exhausted I turned apathetic and indifferent and said when the kids are graduated, I'm outta here!
Well, if you want to make her desperate, tell her you want a D now. If she's like me that will definitely wake her up. If we assume she's like me, it may no longer be completely about what you do or don't do now. It is being fueled by past anger and resentment that she's let build up and it's built a wall between you b/c she hasn't fully gotten over it. Until she can express this pain to you and have you truly listen and try to empathize and make amends, it will stand in her and your way of intimacy.
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She lied so many times about trying and doing it more I don't believe she has changed yet. We just had an arguement about her not making herself available at bed time. From not getting the kids to bed to coming to bed and then just rolling over.
So, I'm not defending her, but when I told my H what she told you, I was not lying. But that anger and resentment kept creeping back in and thwarting the intimacy. Since I felt that - after having tried so many times and being turned away- I could not talk to him about my hurt and get any closure on it- it never got any better and my intentions to help our love life fizzled b/c the pain kept overcoming my resolve.
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The comment about your husband acting like a child? F--- yeah! I'm betting you acted like a child being forced our coerced into something, but your husband (if he was like me) knew you had a right to say no and you used and abused that right to extreme in your marriage.
Well, my situation is slightly different in that I have a physical problem that makes intercourse painful most of the time. So, my saying "no" was understood to not always be about desire (though it often was anyway). And I offered lots of non-intercourse activities for him when we couldn't have sex. Did I "use and abuse it"? Maybe. But it's much more complicated than that- and as you know women are more complicated than that- we just don't have as pure libido-unaffected-by-anything-else-going-on (in general- I'm sure there are exceptions) as men do. But his attitude is that he shouldn't have to do ANYTHING to foster a feeling of romance and intimacy in which I'd want to be sexual with him. That I should just want to do it no matter whether he's beeing an ass, doing household chores, being a participating father, etc. That nothing he does or says should affect my desire and initiation of sex. I'm sorry, but that's Bull****. It doesn't sound like you believe the same, but he does.
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My libido is lower now than then. I am not sure if I suppressed it or that it is a natural occurance. I am 38 and in phenomanal shape, so it's not physical. I am do not want to toot my own horn, but I am goodlooking and have 2 small businesses that I run. She admires this like a mole on her hand, or atleast that is how she use to treat me.
I'm sorry to hear that. Is it time for you to move on and stop caring about what she thinks of you or waiting for her to change? Or to at least pretend like you don't care as much?
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What can she do? Make herself available. Come to bed expecting that I want it. If we don't it should be ok, and not to use it against me (which she does). I use to want it nightly, but sometimes I'ld rather sleep than to deal with my emotions. I've caught myself crying while in the act with real tears.
She can tell the kids that she needs me to give her a back rub and lock the door (she's never done anything like this).
She could give quick bjs now and then. She could do quickies in mid day weekends. These are things I've asked that would help. They haven't materialized at all.
Variations to just mission style. She could initiate. And she will have to do these things indefinitely until I am heeled. Menstration time she could do other things (still alludes her).
So, you say you have told her about all of these options/requests? Quick BJs weren't enough for my H, fyi. Nothing I ever initiated was enough, no matter how interesting, different, often, etc. When you feel like you are set up to fail b/c the other person's expectations are sky high, it makes you not want to try. Do you think you've given her the impression that there is a minimum you expect and you won't be satisfied with any less? If she can't meet that, she may be discouraged about even trying. And you say she will have to do these things indefinitely until you're healed. I understand that and it's legitimate, but again, from the other side, feeling like you're going to have to prove yourself in an area that's been hard for you, when your pain isn't being addressed, and you have no idea how long you'll have to prove yourself, is very very daunting. It makes one want to give up b/c it will "never be enough". I get this feeling very strongly from my H and it's demoralizing. And it also creates more resentment. I felt pressure- immense pressure- and you know, if the result he wanted was more sex, this attitude was NOT the way to go about it- the 'you have to prove this to me as often as I need you to until I'm satisfied, but I don't know how long that will take, then you'll need to continue it forever'. Just something to think about. Do you want to be right or do you want to get what you want?
Have you tried initiating an honest conversation with her about potential deep-seated anger/resentment she has? And really listening to it, even if it makes you angry or you disagree? That would've made a big difference to me.
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Hope this helps. Feel free to pm me.
I would, but they've turned off the PM on these forums, so I can't.
When the men on the chessboard Get up and tell you where to go; And you've just had some kind of mushroom And your mind is moving slow; Go ask Alice... I think she'll know.
I was very romantic and I stepped it up and up and up until blood was draining out of my nose ears. I changed so much that I feel I would actually be a "catch" for someone now.
I have come to her for conversation, we've been to conferences, read a stack of books, have done different programs all to find out that she was just doing them. How would you feel finding that out?
I can see your point of view in this. My wife has NEVER offered to do non intercourse rememdies... none, never.
To help, on a different forum it was suggested, we made a contract that she would "help" me anytime anywhere using hands/mouth or body. Again, I want to emphasize that I'm not going to test her while we are out to eat. I've been rejected even with this contract 1/2 dozen times including this morning after snuggling and me getting her coffee. We argued once again b/c I open myself up to her. How? My confidence is at 0% and having the contract was suppose to help me know she will not reject me and put the responsibility on ME to come to her to ask for it. So I do and still get rejected. I was in so much pain this morning driving to the office I almost cried. Gawd that was painful. She actually said that if I said it this way and did this or that. WTF?
You see I have lost all desire to wew her and at the risk of sounding mean, if she wants to go on a date she will have to ask me. I just don't care and I hate that I don't care, it just seems to be there.
I agree. I need to grow up and get over it, but that is sooooo hard. Why couldn't she get over what ever needed to be done to have intimacy with me all those years ago, and now still reject me?
.....I agree. I need to grow up and get over it, but that is sooooo hard. Why couldn't she get over what ever needed to be done to have intimacy with me all those years ago, and now still reject me?
One of the beautiful aspects of working on Getting a Life is that you focus your energies on something else and get emotionally involved in GAL. Then you demonstrate to both yourself and your wife that you are capable of making huge and dramtic changes. Hopefully some of the things that you do differently are things that your spouse finds interesting/attractive and will draw them to you.
One of my GAL activities has been getting in shape to run a half marathon. My wife and I have been talking walks together and she loves the time together and the talking, while we walk. She has also signed up to go on an organized 5-mile run with me, where our kids are running a half-marathon. So that part of my GAL has caused both my wife and family to pull together. My wife recently was on a work trip that involved quite a bit of walking and she was proud telling me about how much better shape she was in.
There is a thread by on the stages/phases of SSM cure, which is posted on the top of the SSM forum. It has some very good advice. You need to figure out how to forgive your wife and accept some responsiblity for some of the problems between the two of you. Again, figure out how to forgive her.
Good Luck
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
