Standing, When DB'ing becomes unhealthy

[1000ships]

Braveheart et al.,

I do believe that there does become a point and time when I do think its harmful and the LBS should move on. What are your thoughts and opinions?

Standing is unhealthy if you're doing it for the wrong reason.

I don’t think it is standing that is harmful but what people do with it—or do not do with it. It is how they handle or do not handle standing and about attitude. It killed my best friend. Technically her cause of death was a stroke, but her family and I know what brought that on. She was too afraid to set any type of boundary because she feared her MLCer would not return—a man who did not want a divorce. He lived at home through most of the crisis and moved out only in the last year. They were both unhealthily attached to one another.

As her friend I supported her stand while not agreeing with her methods—or lack thereof. But I knew had I not supported her as a stander, it would not have changed her mind. Her family and most other friends were fed-up, tired of hearing it, angry and beyond at her MLCer etc. But I don’t think it was standing or being a stander but what she did and did not do with that. I knew that as Jack said, she had to make the choice to stand or not and she had to choose her strategies; she chose fear. I also don’t think she was in denial when she believed her MLCer would move home—I knew her situation well and being with her was part of his pattern. In the end she finally started to doubt which increased her fears. But she could not face the possibility that he would not come home—and notice I am not saying return, I merely mean a physical move home; a return would have been dependent on their growth.

We have all kinds of standers here, newbies trying to get a handle on everything, intermediaries who are waiting for the MLC to end, long term standers who are really stuck in life, and closet standers who profess to be making changes, but really haven't. I understand the need to stand, but why continue if after years, nothing has changed? Why continue if you are divorced and the MLCer has remarried?

That implies that all long-term standers are stuck—though I doubt you meant it that way. What constitutes long-term? Two years, 3, 5, 7?
What about Covenant Keepers—perhaps they could be called extreme standers. Covenant Keepers stand based on religious principle. Some keep their covenant by refusing to remarry, though they do not expect their spouse to return. That is the case with some standers who do not consider themselves Covenant Keepers also.

If your spouse has divorced you AND remarried another, and you still attach the label "stander" to yourself, I think there is significant and unhealthy denial taking place.
… But if your ex-spouse is now remarried, there cannot be anything healthy about continuing to THINK as though perhaps one day things will come around again.

Is that universal? In all cases where the MLCer has remarried, it is denial of the (real) spouse stands and will accept reconciliation?
I think that part of standing means a person either will accept reconciliation under appropriate conditions or that they will refuse remarriage in Covenant Keeper fashion. But it does not mean they think it will happen—that they believe the odds are in their favor. Yes, some believe that and that may or may not be denial—each situation is different. I knew without a doubt my husband and I would make it through together, some people said I was in denial and many did not—some because they knew I would disagree and others because they saw what was happening.

I would have continued to stand had my MLCer married the borderline personality, pregnancy faking, suicide threatening OW who told him he should be with her because she was weak and I was strong enough to be without him. I believe whole-heartedly that such a marriage would have failed.

My hope would be that NO ONE would put their life on hold for someone who has walked away in a definitive manner. There is too much life out there to be lived and enjoyed to spend too long waiting for someone who is never even thinking about you.

My hope too. Standing isn’t still, it includes moving on, sadly many do not move on—such as my best friend.

I have a huge problem with telling someone whether or not they should hope. It is not my job, or place, and who the F am I to take away someone's hope.

I believe that Hope is something that you can let run in the background, but instead people rely on it and use it as their crutch.

What really shocks me is the amount of people that give up on their marriages after a short time.

Yeah, me too.

I think the information here given to the wonderful people that come here should ONLY be Take care of you... You matter...

Don't even bring standing or not standing into the converstion

After Bomb Drop I did not know there was such a thing as Standing. He wanted out and I thought that meant I could do nothing. Okay, O could work on myself, but I thought that had nothing to do with my marriage. I always knew I would be fine—eventually—had we not reconciled. I agree that take care of you should be a main part of the opening messages, but like most hope-seeking newbies, I needed more. I also needed that little light of hope to help me turn my focus back onto myself—even if I was using that hope as a temporary crutch; it is when it becomes a permanent prosthetic limb that is a problem.

Once the info gets into the arena of , put on make up when he comes over, put a smile on your face, when he sees you, let him make the first move, no let her move out, don't call the lawyer, call the lawyer. Reply to the email this way... Don't reply..

Yes, this is overwhelming confusing and then add his own cycling to that confusion. UGH

The goal here is to get the self esteem up on people I think that was DBING is about..... AND we can only do that by being a cheerleader of YOU ARE GOING TO BE BETTER THAN FINE..and you will be... Put in the work to better yourselves and free yourself of what keeps you in bondage...

Agreed

The advice should not be geared toward them coming back or not..It should focus on the LBS getting healthy soul, body and spirit...
Take care of you, so then in turn you can take care of your children, your finances, your heart, your health....

THEN you are able to respond to their weird emails, their phone calls.. their crap.

All of that Self-focus and growth is what is needed to get to reconciliation, but upon hearing that some do it manipulatively and it is thus not real. Personal Growth needs to be it’s own purpose and the rest will fall into place—and that may or may not include reconciliation.

But Heart’s Blessing said something important on the thread Old Pilot started for Jack.

Until the majority of "why" questions are answered, most people generally will NOT BUDGE, continuing to insist that the MLC/WAS is totally at fault, that they have to change, not the LBS, and the discussion continues until something gives, or not.

I emphasized a specific piece of that because it is not merely refusing to look in the mirror at their own flaws and stop blaming their MLCer that keeps a person stuck. For some, or perhaps many, until they get some questions answered they will not stop focusing on those questions. I got so fed-up with being told that I shouldn’t ask something. Just say I don’t know! I was fine with that, but when people told me to stop asking or that I wasn’t turning to God enough (Jim Conway’s group), I became more upset, more frustrated and a bit incensed and yes, defensive. I was praying—constantly. I was praying for guidance, peace, the ability to sleep, God’s will… For me, learning about MLC helped me to turn my focus onto myself again. It also helped me to gain understanding and compassion.
Now, that is not the same as the do this and not that…no do that and not this…strategies. But even that was part of the journey.

I see a lot of people who are stuck...
they aren't stuck because they are standing

they are stuck because they still go back to what their spouse is doing

they have not detached

Exactly. This said it well.

Standing is a choice; it’s what you do with it that is healthy or unhealthy.

[figgeroni]

karenmarie...I love you and I am going to kiss you ON THE MOUTH!!!!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I TOTALLY believe pictures should be taken in that event.

[KarenMarieS]

You turnin' all Katy Pery on me Fig? lol

and JTB- your a sick pup-- I like it! lol

Have a good weekend kids!!

[Jack_Three_Beans]

The hardwiring in my brain says its good. : )

Thanks.

[brandnewday]

BH,
There is nothing I can add to your thread that hasn't already been said.
I chose to stand for many reasons, but one of the main ones was for my children. I didn't want to just give up until I was definately sure that I was done.
In hindsight I don't regret my choice, just some of the ways I handled some of the situations and my emotions.
Would I ever stand again?
Hell no!
Once bitten, twice shy

[forward]

I think that something that should be said is that getting back in touch with yourself is fun!

But it takes time. It's a learning process. And I do believe that you have to go through it for yourself, without an eye to whether your spouse comes back. I haven't been dating, but that has to do with me and where I am finding myself, not because of X. I don't feel quite ready to do it yet.

The DB work of focusing on yourself is valuable regardless because we do not want to carry unresolved anger into the next relationship.

[HeartsBlessing]

Good afternoon, Braveheart,


I've read the posts on this thread several times.
I totally agree with the points that have been made thus far.

People have had a tendency to see me as a "success,
simply because I made it through with my husband,
but they never stopped to ask me how things had really
changed because of my husband's MLC.

Our marriage was NEVER the same when he came out, some changes I
liked, some I didn't, but accepted the whole package, and
made the necessary adjustments, keeping my own changes
intact. He had adjusments to make as well. There were
changes in me that HE didn't like, but it was either accept
them or walk...I wasn't doing it any other way, nor would I
go back to what I was.
The SAME rules for both people.

Life will always have its problems, and ours, even at this later time,
is NO different in that respect. Life throws curves, we field
those as a couple..and life goes on.

The door is always open for both of us, should either decide to leave,
even at this late date.
The "cage door" stays open forever.

Would I go back and change what happened? Not at all.
Would I have done some things differently? Yeah, probably,
but who can say? I chose my path, lived it, and still
live it to this day.

Standing, to me, can take many forms.
If some are standing for what their spouses were before the MLC tunnel, that may
NOT be what they get. If the MLC spouse allows this to change
them, they will come out different, changed, something burned out
of them.
I'm speaking from not only my own experience in his MLC, but my
own transition, as well. I literally scared my husband upon
my exit...I wasn't the same person he knew, just as he'd not been the same
person I'd known beforehand....He had waited for me, just as I'd waited for him..but neither got what we'd bargained for.

We were strangers to each other. And that called for a "starting
over."

So, the standing may need to be focused in another way, based
on each individual situation.

Some, may go on with their lives, leaving a door
open, while having the difficult task of trying to see
within themselves the realities of everything in their
lives that brought them to this place.

Others may NEVER get over the hurt, and all the pushing
in the world will never bring them to any other understanding.

Still, others, may continue to stand even AFTER the MLC'er/WAS
has remarried...to me, that would definitely be an unhealthy
stand..the door would be closed to any reconciliation, then IMHO.

Each person is different and unique in their situation.

The change that occurred when MLC'er/WAS stepped out of
the marriage is PERMANENT.
There's NO going back once things have happened and damage done.
What some don't stop and realize, is the growing that takes
place within MUST BE PERMANENT. The changes were NEVER
intended to "get the husband/wife back."

We ALL must grow up for all time, truly, and honestly.

I stood, in the beginning, for the usual reasons; I made
a promise, and stood by that promise. I still loved my
husband, and we had a son and history together. I knew there was
hope as long as I loved my husband.

Yet, I went through difficulties even as I stood.
Many questions answered and unanswered, even as I grew, going through
this trial.

Commitment carried me for a time, as there WAS a time when
I didn't love him, hated him for what he was doing.

There can be so much damage done that love is destroyed,
contrary to what anyone says; and I had to face the
never-ending question of "How much damage is too much?" as I went through, along with
"what if" questions that I could never answer to my own satisfaction.

Eventually, I went on with my life, letting go completely,
only to find him walking on my heels later on..but that was
HIS choice, I didn't have anything to do with it.

As each person is different, and each situation is different, my husband
did not move out, nor did I make him do so. We ALL have
choices we make; I made mine, he made his. I wasn't "keeping" him
from moving out, nor was I forcing him to stay.

The point being, we know our husbands/wives better than we
might think we do..and although MLC is "laid over" the top
of these personalities for a time..the core person we know
is still there.

For example, I knew, without the shadow of a doubt if I'd thrown
him out, or he'd chosen to leave, it would have finished our
marriage..Pride is a driving force within my husband, and that,
alone, would have kept him from "crawling" back to me..that IS
how he would have seen it.

Having him still at home, except for the times he was out on the road,
did indeed make things harder, but I feel I gained in
strength to make up for that inconvenience.

Everything happens for a reason, this, I know, too.

Did that make me a "better" success? No, I was successful, because
I walked my journey through; the marriage coming through intact was
an added bonus, not a means to an end.

As it was, I, too, faced the possibility that he might decide NOT
to continue with our marriage. I know this is as a fact, because I
was TOLD this by him after he broke Withdrawal.
Before, I'd gone on intuition, a knowing of him and how he really
was, regardless of what he was doing at that time.

Had he left, would the standing been for nothing? No, I had to see it
through to whatever end was coming, simply because I was unable to
answer all the "what if" questions.

We all have decisions to make concerning our own individual lives,
each and every day.

The decision to stand, or not, is definitely up to the
LBS, IMHO. Anyone can dispense all the helpful advice there is,
but in the end, you have to let go, and watch what happens
next.

Also, the fact that things are happening SO fast in the beginning
causes a panic within the LBS, many mistakes are made..and they realize
what they've done later, then decide to stand.
That was ME I'm describing in the aforementioned;
I'd thought many times I'd gone too far to recover; but
then it was up to my husband...it always was.

Yet, if he had decided NOT to stay with me, I could NOT have stopped him.

This is TRUE, regardless of the situation at hand.

The standing might work, and it might not...the ball is generally within
the MLC'er's court, and unfortunately, they may decide to go on and not
come back.

What people have generally missed in my postings, even that long ago, was
there were always possibilities, not definite things.

No one can EVER really say what's best for each individual situation..it is truly
up to the LBS and no one else.

I don't and NEVER claim to "know it all", but this is my two-cents worth, loosely based
on what I remember and know now.

[braveheart]

H.B. You have a lot of experience and bring up some good points. You bring up an excellent one when you mentioned PRIDE. Its been my experience that most people, regardless of cause or need, will never admit they have done wrong. I feel this is extremely dangerous when dealing with an MLCer. Going through an MLC, one is supposed to see the wrongs they have done when they have completed the journey, in theory anyway. Regardless, if someone causes that much hurt and pain to people, they should see the error of their ways and be sorry and remorseful. If they are not, I'm not sure they have come out of it, or never will. IMO that opens the door for them to do things like that again, because if they didn't really see the wrongs they have done, why shouldn't they do it again?

[HeartsBlessing]

Hello Braveheart,

Regardless, if someone causes that much hurt and pain to people, they should see the error of their ways and be sorry and remorseful. If they are not, I'm not sure they have come out of it, or never will. IMO that opens the door for them to do things like that again, because if they didn't really see the wrongs they have done, why shouldn't they do it again?

Very good point. Anything is possible when someone refuses to see what they've done to destroy a relationship..and the LBS has to be prepared to see things in a light of reality that is so hard to see.
And prepare to make some hard decisions when this light is seen.

The rose colored glasses will indeed, fall off, shattering in the floor, and the MLC spouse is seen in less than a favorable light.
This is but a part of the growing process...the marriage is divided up into categories: his marriage, her marriage and their marriage...each piece is pulled apart and looked at for flaws, errors, and mistakes.

No one is perfect, regardless of who they are, and mistakes will always made; and life will not be perfect; there will always be thorns amongst the roses.

There are problems when pride gets in the way of a reconciliation, and that's buying the kind of trouble that no one needs.

Each person brings something to the marriage, whether it be baggage from childhood, problems from another life, tools to teach the other...each one balances out the other's weaknesses from a point of strength.

Yet, if pride is not dropped, and all confessed, plus learning from the mistakes made, it CAN open the door once again, to a repeat of mistakes..only this time, in FULL knowledge of what's committed.

My husband said when he broke Withdrawal, he was sorry for how he treated me, described the problem within himself, and made necessary changes to reflect that sorrow.
The one mistake I made was forgiving him right off the bat...after doing that I couldn't make him understand that he would have to deal with MY feelings on the matter.

I learned to NOT tell him when I forgave him(though, I forgave him within my heart)...making him think I was holding it on him until he saw his own actions through as each one came up to be looked at.
In his mind, when you forgave, you didn't have to deal with the hurt that laid with the person you hurt....and oh, that is NOT true. I pointed out harshly that even though he forgave me for what I did, he was STILL angry with me...and I had to bear this..but it seemed to make NO difference.
So, I started going the other direction....working through first, forgiveness spoken later.

He, however, never admitted to the OW he'd had while within the tunnel; I can't say either way how he handled that or resolved that within himself...she was HIS problem, not mine, and I didn't make it mine. I've figured out since then, that he did not wish to cause me further hurt...it was bad enough that I found out without him talking about it; the signs fell and actually sent me into a tail-spin at the time. And he saw that as I confronted him each time a sign fell.

I made it CRYSTAL clear to him that if something of this nature happened again that I'd simply show him the door, and possibly kick his hind end while he was walking out...and I MEANT it.

No, I didn't feel that I deserved what happened, and nearly DID throw him out over it.
I saw my contribution toward the breakdown, fixed that, grew, changed, and the rest went into the hands of the Lord to deal with.
If I hadn't, who knows what would have happened down the road?

I came to understand that OW was his re-creating of a connection with his "mother" so the break would finally send him into manhood for real;(this didn't happen the first time, and his mother had passed by the time he went into full-blown MLC)...and what happened when he tried to break it off was unforeseen by him.
Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I don't think he ever meant for it to go that far, but, temptation was laid before him, and he failed the test.

Quite simply, it was an EA that went to a PA when it was breaking down. The connection lasted as an EA one and a half years, it went PA the last six months, and from the signs I saw, he only slept with her three times...and it was close to breaking down totally when that happened.

As I recall, she burned up the phones, his cell and our house phone..and it was laughable at times...but something happened between them right before it broke for good; it might or might not have had to do with me.

I'm not blind to him the way I'd been before his MLC, I see him for what he really is, and still love him, yet, choose to continue to stay with him.

One last thing I probably need to point out, and this IS from my own experience:

It IS also possible to come out with an emotional block that neither spouse sees; until it comes out later on.

This is what has happened to my husband at this time.

Snoddery has said that it means he never truly exited the tunnel, something interrupted his processing. I'm not saying she's wrong....BUT;

The thing is, I SAW him come out, I was HERE when he came out, and I KNOW that it happened.

What I'm seeing here, currently, is one final issue that wasn't resolved while within the tunnel..his parent's divorce at the age of 7.

It's the form of a seven year old child who takes over from time to time, a smart aleck, somewhat mean at times; and quite honestly, I'd like to take a switch to him, but can't...I have to remind myself he's a 47 year old man. LOL!

The child appeared sometime in early 2005, or so..I was still in my Transition, and I MISSED IT!

He's a tattletale, tattling on our son, but backing off when I threaten to have a family conference.

I'm not asking what I should do about this...I'm just telling you what I see at this late date...another possiblity of this trial that I didn't see back then.

That child was NOT present and accounted for because he'd been blocked emotionally, by my husband, at that point in time. And I didn't know to look for him, because he wasn't shown to me.

This was the initial reason I came back. Nobody failed that I can see. It's just another bump in the road to navigate.

It has also come clear to me as I've consulted with people whose parents divorced at a young age that he may NEVER get through this one issue...the child in him will be set to the side, only to come back again later on at a later time.

I'd never dealt with my parents divorcing, so I have to confess I cannot understand what he is dealing with. Nor, do I know how to draw it out of him, so I can help him heal.

I have come to this conclusion:

It is up to him, not me..I can only choose my own actions/path, as well as let him go to make whatever decision he chooses in this.

I know this is NOT about me, it is about the stand of the LBS; yet, this is what I'm facing at this point in time, because what affects him, affects ME also, as we are STILL married.

Thank God, I am NOT sucked up into his drama; I'm actually quite detached from it, looking in from the outside.

So, I threw my cards out on the table to be looked at...and this is certainly NOT a full house.