How 2 fix sex issue if he won't let me?

[alice444]

jaime,

I was very romantic and I stepped it up and up and up until blood was draining out of my nose ears. I changed so much that I feel I would actually be a "catch" for someone now.
...
I can see your point of view in this. My wife has NEVER offered to do non intercourse rememdies... none, never. ...

To help, on a different forum it was suggested, we made a contract ...My confidence is at 0% and having the contract was suppose to help me know she will not reject me and put the responsibility on ME to come to her to ask for it.

This is what I offered my H- just as an experiment, b/c he was tired of getting rejected. He wouldn't take my offer. So I'm at a roadblock. I'm so sorry that she agreed to it and then didn't follow through. I hate to say it, b/c it could be me, but that says something.

Once again, have you delved into everything she feels she needs- beyond the "if you'd only do this or that for me"- that's just fluff on top that comes out of a loving, respectful relationship- it's not a to do list she wants, it's a way of being, which includes never expecting sex in return for what you do on an everyday basis. I know it sounds harsh, but that was what helped kill my desire- my H's "transactional" view of sex and all the pressure that was on to reciprocate b/c he was keeping track of all the nice things he did for me. I'm just trying to give you the other perspective in case it helps. Maybe she does not feel heard, truly heard, by you in whatever her issues in the R are.

You see I have lost all desire to wew her and at the risk of sounding mean, if she wants to go on a date she will have to ask me. I just don't care and I hate that I don't care, it just seems to be there.

I agree. I need to grow up and get over it, but that is sooooo hard. Why couldn't she get over what ever needed to be done to have intimacy with me all those years ago, and now still reject me?

Not sure I understand that last sentence. Can you clarify? Like you feel you already solved the problems for her and she still won't be intimate, or what?

Are you GALing?

[themud]

I'm not sure I can clarify that other than to say if I wasn't perfect why couldn't she accept that then. She wanted me to forgive her when she would be [fill in the blank], but she wouldn't forgive me to allow us to come together in intimacy. She would say you said/did [fill in the blank], yet if I would mention that she said/did [fill in the blank], she would freak out that I brought it up and "still haven't forgiven her for it".

I don't know what GALing is, is that another poster?

[alice444]

No, it means get a life- do things for yourself, things you've always wanted to do, take care of your own needs and wants right now. There's a list of common abbreviations in the newcomers forums near the top--

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I don't believe in unconditional love... that is ridiculous and fantasy movie stuff!

Nor is there ANY requirement that you believe, accept, or embrace unconditional love as a concept or a reality. You might not know what it looks like, you might not know how to express it, or more importantly it might be more important to you that you don't express it.

However, your statement also presents you with a pretty big challenge. Which means if you are told that you are loved unconditionally, you are now on the record as telling that person that they are a liar. Oh, you might not say it directly (another lie on your part).

However, your position really leaves you two places to go. You don't believe in love at all or you believe only in conditional love. You love or can be loved if, and only if, certain conditions are met. Call it a quid pro quo for something that looks like love (to you). A quid pro quo for sex is a legal distinction.

The Captain

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Two things that are only indirectly related.

"Sometimes you just gotta ride the horse the direction it's going"

You may have heard that b4. Sometimes, fighting the direction that things are going does not produce any tangible results even though the direction that you are being taken is not where you'd like to go. In all that I've read in your threads here and elsewhere, you've come to a realization, perhaps too late, that you aimed some of your life where it is going.

If I recall, you said that he moved out and then moved back and now you moved out. Can't find if you've moved back.


That brings me to the second aphorism.

If the horse is dead, get off. And your marriage may be a dead horse.

I note your profile name change

Captain

[alice444]

Two things that are only indirectly related.

"Sometimes you just gotta ride the horse the direction it's going"

You may have heard that b4. Sometimes, fighting the direction that things are going does not produce any tangible results even though the direction that you are being taken is not where you'd like to go. In all that I've read in your threads here and elsewhere, you've come to a realization, perhaps too late, that you aimed some of your life where it is going. If I recall, you said that he moved out and then moved back and now you moved out. Can't find if you've moved back.

That brings me to the second aphorism.

If the horse is dead, get off. And your marriage may be a dead horse.

I note your profile name change

Captain

Hi Captain- I think you've gotten me confused with another poster on my thread. I didn't say I don't believe in uncondtional love (not sure if I do, actually), and no one has left the other person in my sitch. But your advice and insight are welcome and very interesting, as always.

[Young at Heart]

I note your profile name change Captain

jaime_ca = Juno

Captain;

Yes, sometimes you do have to ride the horse you have, play the hand you are deal, ....and all those other over-used sayings that tried to teach common sense.

Unfortunately, from what I have observed, "common sense" is no longer that "common." Settling for less than a perfect relationship, is also no longer acceptable. Our grandparents and great grandparents probably viewed a successful marriage as one where you didn't starve to death, your spouse didn't beat you (or abandon you) and where your kids survived into adulthood, with anything else being "frosting on the cake."

Part of what I find interesting in reading many of the comments and posts is the degree to which people are "torn between leaving their spouse or can't wait to end their marriage."

Especially, in the SSM forum, (if I were to generalize) I see people who are wanting to try to save their marriage more. (Although MWD has made a career of trying to help people save marriages, so those on this forum are a self-selecting minority of the troubled marriages out there and most are trying to save their marriage, which is why they ended up here.) Also since it takes time for a couple to work themselves "into an SSM" I see more long term relationships with other reasons for staying together (shared retirement, children, home mortgages, relationships that are basically positive except for the sex, etc.) discussed on this forum. Since I am generally pro-marriage, I find the comments/posts more interesting and emotionally/mentally challenging.

Actually, I found the discussion in another thread (your thread) using the "economic theory of sunk costs" as applied to a SSM to be facinating. Your discussion with "Walking/Virginia" was something that I had to think deeply about. One of the things that I kept thinking about was if "deep, unconditional love" really was a kind of "sunk cost?" I know that I would give my life to protect my children and my wife, they mean that much to me. If donating an organ would help them live or survive, I would not hesitate no matter what the state of our relationship was.

I also know that I will "love" my wife till the day that I die for all she has done for me, for bringing and raising two wonderful children into this world, and for being my true love and compantion for about 40 years. While I could be so frustrated with her and hurt/damaged by her regarding an SSM, to the point that I would divorce her, I would still love her for all that we had together. Perhaps that is what unconditional love in an SSM may be about.

That is why I also respect those who have chosen to remain with their spouse even if there is a huge hole in their marriage relationship.

I hope you find happiness and what you are looking for.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

J:

I don't have you confused (on the unconditional love point). I'm sorry, I just assumed that you and others would see the reply to "themud" in the header. Maybe I ought to be more explicit.

As for the leaving, moving, etc; sorry for any confusion. It is kinda hard to follow all the responses the way this system is organized.

The Captain

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Young at Heart (and others):

If we look at marriage as an investment portfolio of many components, an SSM can be seen as an "undeperforming" part of the portfolio.

Can the underperforming part bring down the entire investment? As we have seen, the answer is yes.

Whether it will or not depends upon the personalities involved and how each person weights the components of the "portfolio."In the context of sunken costs, its the time and effort "invested" in the various components that becomes the issue to resolve. As I mentioned in "waiting" thread, it was the topic of sunken costs in energy and the environment that had me compare it to my own SSM.

In terms of "unconditional love" there are many contexts to look through. My own personal view is through the lens of "being with" who a person (i.e., my wife) chooses to be. It can be more complicated than that. I, like how you've described yourself, have not stopped loving her simply because of her choice to turn this into a sexless marriage. In terms of a marriage of my dreams, however, this is not and cannot be achieved and so I settle for something far less satisfying.

Which brings me back to the answer for this thread: you cannot "fix" something that the other partner does not want to or will not let you fix. Period.

The can only be changed if something or greater risk is brought forward so that "fixing" the original problem becomes preferable.

The Captain

[Young at Heart]

Which brings me back to the answer for this thread: you cannot "fix" something that the other partner does not want to or will not let you fix. Period.

The can only be changed if something or greater risk is brought forward so that "fixing" the original problem becomes preferable.

The Captain

+1

This is why (in my opinion) a good change agent (for an SSM, say a board certified sex therapist) is so helpful in making sure that the person who doesn't want to change understands the full ramifications of what change and not changing really mean. Good luck to you in your journey.