"I don't recall reading a post here when exposure actually made an affair worse. I have read posts where there was fallout... tantrums, threats, fury, even rage... but never heard of a case yet where the cheating spouse upped the ante as a result of their LBS revealing what they were doing in secret."
There were several although once things got bad, the posters stopped posting. I think BigJohn was one. There was another post here where the the person exposed to everyone who would listen and they ended up getting engaged.
Just saying that you really can't make blanket statements like that. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Other Forums that specialize in MLC and infidelity actually seem to show that after exposure it made things worse.
"5. Family - this kinda stuff brings families closer. It gives them a chance to jump in and help you out when you really need it"
This is also a bit misleading. The family usually gets torn because they feel they have to choose between one person or the other. And the majority of the time they will side with the one whom they have a blood relation to. That's been shown all over this board. Same as the friends. They feel "obligated" to choose one over the other. I've had alot of personal experience with that. It's tough. Most of them will walk the fence or cut ties to both because they don't want to be included in the drama or be seen as a "traitor".
I'm all for the confidence and dignity though. Although if you want that, you might as well just bypass exposure and go straight for D.
Just my 2 cents.
Here's my 2 cents...and yes there are arguments for it, but IF you mean what I think you mean...
LOTS Of m's are hurt by exposure...frankly, I can't think of one that was saved BECAUSE of exposure, IF, IF you mean by exposure-telling the OP's spouse and family and going public? IF you simply mean confronting YOUR spouse-- by all means do it. But involving others who may know already and don't need a 3rd party shoving it in their face, or may not want to know for sure while they work on things, OR may be trying to work things out their own way, forcing them to confront YOUR issue is not your job. There's a big diff between suspecting an A and working on your M, AND having it in your face for the world to see. Look at Tiger Woods [i]and for a minute,[/i] assume he really is remorseful, although nutty, and assume he truly wants help and wants to save his marriage --and assume for a minute you are Elin and you love him and you have kids with him BUT THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS OF YOUR PAIN AND KEEPS ON HARPING ABOUT IT....exposure makes it a whole lot harder to stay M, not easier.
Bottom line with ALL The arguments for and against, it comes down partly to this: Are you truly doing it for ALL the right reasons OR is part of you wanting to hurt someone else, like you are hurting? And are there kids involved? AND, will it help YOUR goal of saving the M or is that no longer the goal...dig deep to really know. AS my DB coach pointed out, A whole lot of LBSers, myself included, at some point simply want to be declared "right" and the WAS "wrong"...but it's not our job to "teach our spouses a lesson" or show them the consequences of their actions (outside of our own responses to them) b/c LIFE teaches them consequences.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I don't get on the boards much anymore as our marriage is progressing nicely, so when I took a look at this thread and saw the compliment from Puppy, I just had to respond.....thanks Pup.
For those of you who never read my sitch....I was a regular on the Infidelity board a couple years ago. I've since moved on to Piecing and yes, our marriage was saved.
I'll only speak to my situation and what I've read (Harley, Glass) and what Steven Harley said to me during our counciling sessions.
In my situation, my W was terribly addicted to OM (and yes, I believe most A's are an addiction). Even after she knew that OM had moved on to another woman and made it fairly evident to her that he had moved on, she still was convinced that when our youngest son graduated from H.S. (two years from then) that OM would be waiting for her. OM began distancing himself when I exposed to his W, but my W was convinced that when they divorced, which process had begun after I let her know what was going on (OM had 4 A's during their marriage that she knew about and a couple more she suspected) that she could divorce me and they'd live happily ever after.
Once I knew OM had moved on, I began trying to outshine him. Didn't work. W perceived me as a wuss. She's told me that since we reconciled. She told me that she didn't have any respect for me because I was letting her treat me that way. So after 4 months of trying to outshine OM and me finding evidence that W was continuing to try to get together with OM, even after she told me it was over, I finally grew a set, made an appointment with a lawyer and told my grown children why I was going to divorce their mother.
My telling the kids was what woke her up. W came to me a day after I told the kids and said she would try to make our marriage work and that she'd give it until our son graduated from H.S. I told her that if I found any contact between her and OM, I would file immediately.
That was the beginning of NC. And it still took her over a year before I began to see real changes in her. I read a week or so ago where Sandi (Hi Sandi!) told another man posting here that it took her well over a year to get over her OM. And I can attest to it taking that long with my W. It still took another 6 months after I began seeing those changes in my W before she finally broke down and told me she didn't know what the F she was thinking, that she loves me and had always loved me. That was 7 months ago. There's still little bumps in the road and I wouldn't say we're completely recovered, but we're pretty darn close.
So...do I think that what I've seen described as the "little bo peep" method can work? Yes, but in my humble opinion, by the time that method works, the LBS has had more than they can take and has moved on. There's just too much disrespect that goes on for a person to take it for long.
In Harley's method, you try to outshine the OP for a period of time. For women it's recommended you try for no more than 6 weeks, for men 6 months. Exposure to the spouse, your kids and anyone else that can have influence on the wayward is to be done during this first time period. And if the spouse involved in the A hasn't ended it by that time, you separate and go completely dark and let the A run it's course. When the A ends (which it most likely will), the thought is that you'll still have enough feelings for your spouse that you'll be open to giving your marriage a try.
Personally, I don't see a lot of conflict in MWD's advice and Harley's advise on these points. On the exposure, yes, but the gist of it isn't a whole lot different. MWD recommends LRT and Harley recommends separation and going completely dark on your spouse. The LRT is basically the same thing.
Wow, that was more than I intended to write. I just know for me and in the literature I've read and in my sessions with S. Harley, if you let the A run it's course without some stong stands against it, even if your spouse comes back and wants to try, you'll probably be too far gone to want to try yourself.
And yes, I believe there's a gender difference too. I read somewhere, and I know Puppy likes to say it, for a woman to love a man, there has to be respect and most women won't respect a man who's letting her treat him like chit (my W included).
And I'll say one last thing that I'm sure will generate a chit storm of responses....In all the time I've read on this board and the MB board, the people that protest the strong stances the most are the people who have had or are having an A themselves. I've seen them repeatedly say that if their spouse had given them enough time, they would have returned to the marriage. I'm sure that can work, but most of what I've read (and my own experience) leads me to believe that by the time that happens, you just don't have the energy or inclination to give your marriage a shot.
I'll close with, everyone who comes here wants the same thing. Marriages to be saved. Everyone is free to accept or reject the advise given to them. And of course, everyone's opinion is colored by their own experiences. So I guess I would say, I agree with Lotus that you have to weigh everything that you're advised to do by people on these message boards and make the best decision for YOU. Heck, even someone like me who agrees with the "Ghandi" method disagrees wtih some of the advise that other proponents of the method suggest.
Mine too. If I hadn't said anything I would be typing this in an apartment ALONE right now.
Exposure to the OP spouse is also the strategy reccomended by Penny Tuppy who's a FT who SPECAILIZES in infidelity, she reccomends this to her clients all the time.
Where are you getting your statistics from 25MLC? What are you basing your position on that exposure doesn't have a positive impact?
I don't understand why allowing close friends and family to be involved in the exposure and confrontation process would be a horrible thing. These same people are people who were at the WEDDING in many cases.
When a marriage is BEGINNING it is customary to have everyone involved and CELEBRATE... wouldn't it make logical sense when a marriage is falling APART to bring many of those SAME PEOPLE in to help RESCUE that same marriage?
Marriages aren't secret solo activities, they are units of COMMUNITY. Couples, Homes, Children build a COMMUNITY. The idea that a marriage is BEST saved in SECRET is ridiculous.
We ML again last night, didn't know he had been drinking until after. It almost seemed as if he was acting VERY drunk to drive home that he had been drinking. Very sure now that last night he was fishing for ML also.
We had that little argument tonight... what makes up a serial cheater. I said, I don't know, you cheated three times in two Ms that I know of, how do you define it? Five times? Eight?
se·ri·al / Show Spelled[seer-ee-uhl] Show IPA –noun of, pertaining to, consisting of, or occurring in a series rather than simultaneously:
So, basically serial means "more than one"
Originally Posted By: Passenger
Anyway, I came home from my class tonight and told him the following: 1. I am NOT ready to give up on us, although I am fine with scrapping the old M (symbolically) 2. I am NOT giving up the kids, the house or the dogs. 3. I want to start dating and see how it goes. 4. I will start counseling if he desires, and I would like it if he went with me once or twice to fill them in on his side.
Remove the "if he desires" part.
Just find a GOOD FT who does NOT support infidelity, recognizes it as an addiction, and has experience treating marriages with infidelity problems in them.
I would just TELL him you are going and GO. You don't need to negotiate. Your husband is of the mind right now that HE has to GET into the FACE of EVERYONE you expose and talk to. So, I suspect if you start going he will very much want to get in there and tell "his side" of the "story"
MWD makes this point clear in DR, MOST Of the time when she takes on a new marriage case it is only ONE spouse who calls and who she first sees, the other spouse often comes along later AFTER a good example has been set by the LBS.
Originally Posted By: Passenger
Now, I know it's a R talk and I know it was not well received. He tried to bait me twice and I didn't fall for it. However, I needed to get that out because tomorrow while I'm learning to drive the motorcycle, he will be at MIL's house filling her in on the "rest" of the story about me. He told her she does NOT have the full story about me.
Let him dance all he wants. Your MIL is GOLD. She should call him more on how much DAMAGE this guy is doing and not cater so much to her poor baby Son, but this is to be expected. She's a landslide of support compared to most men's mothers who just seem to enable them blindly without a shred of conscience.
All she really needs to hit him with is :
"If you divorce that beautiful woman, TEAR up TWO MARRIAGES, and run off with OW there is NO WAY OW will EVER be WELCOME OW in MY HOME... EVER... I am starting to wonder if my son has a conscience..."
This stand should put your Husband in a VERY TIGHT SPOT.
Originally Posted By: Passenger
She's prepared to repeat the request/demand that he go to counseling and give me/the M another chance. However, the story he gave her was that "we had spoken and came to the conclusion that it's pretty much not able to come back." Well, I had never said that and I needed to make sure my position was CLEAR before he went over there.
Yup, its a story, you may want to consider secretly recording one of these "stories" in progress and play it back for her so she can HEAR her son's LIES.
When people HEAR that THEY are being LIED to OUTRIGHT they ten to stop supporting the liar any further, even if they are related... NO ONE likes being LIED to.
As long as MIL understands addiction she should get that her SON is going to tell her whatever he needs to say in order to save face and get OW and him setup together. He will LIE, CHEAT, and STEAL to do it.
Your MIL is taking the place of a GOOD family therapist right now.
The problem is your husband thinks this is a WAR between YOU and HIM. It's a WAR between MARRIAGE and INFIDELITY. Your husband needs to bail off the losing side here before you lose respect for him completely. I honestly can't see your mother supporting OW at all in the future... and she should make that CLEAR to her SON. OW was DELIBERATELY SABOTAGING her DAUGHTER in law in SECRET for how many months? Does this guy honestly expect her to welcome this OW into her home?
Originally Posted By: Passenger
So, I told him I wanted a monogamous relationship and another chance, starting with dating. He said "who are you going to ask about that? ME?" I said yes, of course, I'd have to believe him. (I know guys, I was just avoiding the bait.)
Yup, a TRANSPARENCY AGREEMENT is an essential part of reconcilliation after infidelity. If your husband refuses to be tansparent then he hasn't grown up and he is going to continue to play games with you.
Phil McGraw has a wonderful saying :
Those who have nothing to hide, hide NOTHING.
That, is how a partnership best functions.
Originally Posted By: Passenger
He seemed angry or at least shut off during this convo, as you can imagine...
I made a post in ALJ's thread tonight about communication and bullying, you may want to read that, I think i may have said some stuff in there you might find of use. You don't need to read the whole thread, just the latest post I made.
It's not entirely relevant, but it is a solid warning to you so you can be confident you are taking the healthiest route for yourself.. and I do believe you are.
We ML again last night, didn't know he had been drinking until after. It almost seemed as if he was acting VERY drunk to drive home that he had been drinking. Very sure now that last night he was fishing for ML also.
This is a good sign that he may very well be minimizing contact with OW... if his drive isn't that high and he's looking for sex then he likely isn't getting that from OW.
The drinking worries me though Pass. For a few reasons.
1. Is he responsible enough to know not to drink and drive? He hasn't exactly been a beacon of accountability thus far... 2. When he's been drinking he's vulnerable and OW may phone him or he may more easily break down and call OW... is there someone WITH him when he's out drinking?
Just got back from motorcycle class. I was SO excited to do it. In fact, I came home and told H how excited I was, if you get my drift. That led to him saying he was very drunk last night and apologizing, but I said don't worry about it, I had a good time. H smiled at my offer and said no, he didn't want to ML right now... and I kept looking at him as he was speaking to me, and he said "stop looking at me like THAT." Then, later, he said "maybe I'll reconsider later tonight when I get home."
Here's to hoping he keeps in mind what I offered to do and it drives him wild tonight thinking of me.
Here's to REALLY hoping - it'll be the first time we ML without alcohol in a while.
Lots of posts I missed while I was out at class, I'm going to go make dinner for kids and then come back and read and reply.
PMA pretty high right now.
H told me ALL of his plans for the weekend... where he was going, who he was going to see, how long he expected to be, and what he was doing. He also said that there was NO intention today or tomorrow of any sort of "meeting" in case I "didn't trust him." I told him I trusted him, that we have too deep a connection and I'd know if he were lying. I knew he was being honest from his tone of voice and the fact he was looking deeply at me like he used to. The old H was back for just a few seconds there, and it made me catch my breath.
However, I know full well that after leaving me and those nice exchanges we were just having, he was heading to MIL's house to "fill her in" on what else she was missing on OUR story.
I sent her the five stages a person committing infidelity goes through along with the four stages of a M according to Retrouvaille. Romance, Disillusionment, Misery, Awakening. (REALLY pray we can make it to the fourth stage)
Hoping she can use that during the talk. Also, the A stuff from earlier in my thread. -demonization of spouse -rewriting marital history -punishing spouse -validating/seeking approval of others -restoring balance (where he wants you to be happy for him)
He is SO using ALL of those right now. It dawned on me as I was riding the motorcycle today that the reason he's gone through these stages these last few days IS those five reasons above. Think of it this way. He demonized me to MIL (and friends, who accepted the story as they were his friends first) - and he rewrote our marital history, and was all ready for MIL to accept and do the last two - validate and give him approval plus HELP HIM restore balance and be happy for him. Instead, she presented an obstacle and told him NO. Then he threw a temper tantrum like a little baby. Told her she HURT him and she DIDN'T UNDERSTAND him and even threatened her with not talking to her anymore ('I'll find someone else to support me')
Well, I called MIL/FIL today and told them that this is why he's going over tonight, to give another chance to them to hear his bull story and give him the help he needs moving past and into "forever happiness and bliss." When they DO NOT accept and DO tell him to get help and work on our M, he is probably going to throw another temper tantrum, this one being worse than the last. I'll have to say prayers for them tonight. They are going through enough right now and don't really need this extra stress. If anything happens to these two (health-wise) because of the added strain on them, I will never forgive myself. On the one hand, they are my biggest allies and may very well be THE instrument that helps save my M this time... on the other, I can't get over the guilt of involving them. Trying to find a balance and not call them every time I panic over something.
