My dad also remarried my stepmom and they seem to be doing OK.
I'm a fighter, though, I don't just give up.
H broke the no contact rule last night. I asked why he came home at 4:30, and he said, (in a nasty, defensive tone) "because it's the time *I* picked. No reason other than *I* wanted to." I asked "then you broke your promise to me." He started off really nasty with "Oh, did I?" I interrupted and said in a kind, loving tone "I am asking you an honest question, please be honest with me." He was taken for a second and then his tone changed and he said "Yes." I said nothing, went back to picking out my clothes. He continued and told me...
"When I got done at sensei's house, I was driving home and just called her. She came out, we went out and had some drinks. I parked at the reservoir and she drove. We went to have mai tais, and had far too many mai tais. We came back to the reservoir and talked (he paused, suspect sex? but didn't push.) and then I fell asleep in my car. It just happened to be 4:30 when I woke up. Could have been any time."
I said "will you promise no more contact again." He said "yes"
He looked remorseful, which is a huge step.
I said it hurts me to see you in pain. I know it's hard. I'm very happy you opened up. He looked at me like he wanted to say something (disbelief?) but didn't. I asked what he was going to do next time he got an urge, and he said "I won't call." I said "sometimes it's irresistible, you need a plan."
Text'd OW and OWH "No contact means no contact. Next time H calls you, please tell him you won't talk to him. He hurt his kids again and blew them off to be with you at the res/mai tai."
Text'd OW and OWH "No contact means no contact. Next time H calls you, please tell him you won't talk to him. He hurt his kids again and blew them off to be with you at the res/mai tai."
Passenger,
I would suggest that you focus your boundary-enforcing efforts on your husband, and not this other couple. Your husband violated your no-contact agreement, basically blew you off all evening, stayed out until 4:30am with his girlfriend (and I have little doubt they had sex), acted like an entitled horse's ass when you called him on it . . . and you tell him "I hate to see you in pain" and "Just promise me you won't do it again"????
You think I did that wrong? He was being tender, for the first time, instead of angry/defensive. I thought that by being "there for him" the way she would... loving, sweet, understanding in the moment, and then later today having a talk with him where I asked him for the password on his computer and talked about strategies for making sure it doesn't happen again (like an alcoholic has a friend to call when they want a drink) - that I could be firm and set those boundaries later?
As far as OW/OWH - OW has OWH convinced I'm trying to treat them as another soap opera and meddle in their affairs, so everything I say to them, I am trying to come off as nice for HIS sake... so he doesn't shut me out. I was trying to make sure HE knew that they had seen each other again. Not sure why, she DID say "we have an open and honest marriage..." Ha ha ha, more like "Open and open" Curious if she came clean before I broke the news or after.
I saw nothing in your husband's demeanor (at least how you related it) that was "tender."
"OK if you violated my boundary this time, just don't do it again" does not work. Try it with a child who willfully stays up past their bedtime, and let me know how it works out.
This is how it should have went down:
When your husband came home at 4:30, the house should have been locked up, every light out, and -- if you've got one -- security system armed, with a new password. Then tell him calmly "This is not a hotel, and I am not an innkeeper. I am your wife. Next time you choose to stay out this late, without having the courtesy of calling me, don't bother coming home."
OW's husband has shown by his actions and his words that he doesn't care to know any more. He is classic "Big Bird." If you want to, however, you could have sent him an e-mail the next morning saying "Not that you seem to care, and I'm handling this with my husband, but he tells me they were together last nite until 4am. If you'd like to swap notes, just give me a call, but I'm moving to protect myself from this."
There's a huge difference between a repentant alcoholic who is sincerely trying to overcome his addiction, and needs a "buddy system," and your husband's entitled defiance. You can try to "tender, loving and sweet" him through it, but it's not going to work in my opinion.
As I said to you last week, you have a decision to make as to which path you want to take. I wanted to speak my peace one last time, and now I will leave you alone, because I really don't want to just keep beating you up.
No, Puppy, please keep beating me up. I appreciate every word and your efforts. If I need it, I need it. I am NOT on here to hear nice words, although sometimes I do need that. I'm here to make my M work, to bust the D, and whatever I need to do/hear, I need that. I am out to win.
Like I said, he started with the entitled, defensive attitude, but when I softened my tone, he followed suit and came out with it all on his own. I saw that as a babystep. He said he couldn't talk to me, and now he was talking to me. He has been defensive and angry in his tone, and now twice he's been kind and gentle in his tone (yes, it started off defensive, but then got soft and gentle as he explained what had happened.)
I also have in mind at all points that in his mind he is still "over" me, he will never love me again and our M is as good as done. "I" know that can change, but he does not right now... so I don't want to do anything to push him. It's my pushy, overbearing, controlling attitude (from his view) that pushed him to this point. I used to be sweet and kind and nice, but not a pushover - back before I had to be a mother, housekeeper, and caretaker - back when it was just us in an apartment having fun as a couple. Once all the added stuff got put on our M, things started going downhill. We were friends and had fun together. In a dysfunctional way, he's trying to find that friendship with OW, but all they seem to do is go and drink to excess.
Now that I've explained my POV, I'm going to carefully consider and replay the whole mess in my head using your tactic and see what I believe the outcome would have been. Thank you for your input, I'm going to spend a good amount of time running this back and forth through my movie reel.
Pass, I can't believe I called this one to the letter...
I was worried he would go out, drink too much, and call her, and a day later he goes out and does it...
You are fighting two battles here, an affair AND alcoholism at the same time.
How old are your kids now?
I am thinking Puppy's route may have had more impact. It is also possible your H intended to see her before he even started drinking but got DRUNK in order to justify it and get past you on it... It is the drink of courage after all...
You don't want a husband that hurts you over and over again, you want a husband that THINKS BEFORE he ACTS and DOESN'T hurt you at all...
Remorse is a sign here, but how can we even be sure its sincere?
Addicts can pull off some terrific performances ya know...
We don't know your H and you do. I saw a lot of sense in your reply to Puppy.
I agree totally with him that you should perhaps not be directing your actions at OW and OWH but rather you should be looking at the things that trigger your H to feel entitled to act like he did when he didn't come home.
Alcohol seems to have a large part to play. I don't know if he needs AA as it seems that the drinking has been a relatively recent thing and seems to go hand in hand perhaps with a bad conscience. Getting him to stop drinking may well be a big factor in stopping him seeing OW - we all know that alcohol stops us feeling so inhibited and makes us do things that maybe we wouldn't have done otherwise.
Also, the children are of an age where they don't need babysitting all the time and perhaps you should start going out and enjoying yourself more.....and see if your H would go with you - try and remind him of the old times.
Most couples get bogged down in the raising of children and it is common to lose sight of one another, and forget why you decided you wanted to be with your S in the first place. Your H needs reminding.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Well, maybe not to the letter exactly. From what I can tell, he was on his way back to the house in the afternoon, called her, parked at the reservoir (RIGHT down the street from our house, BTW) she drove down (hour + 20 min drive from where she lives) and took her car down the road to the local bar where they got drunk. Then she drove him back to his car, where they sat and “talked” until whatever time she left, and then he fell asleep in his car – woke up and drove home at 4:30.
So, no, he was not drunk before calling her. He just lacked willpower. (JUST – I don’t mean to make it sound trivial – it’s a HUGE lack)
I know alcoholism, I’ve had relatives die from it, and I grew up around it in my family. He’s not an alcoholic. Now, he DOES have a drinking problem. A bad drinking problem. My aunt died from alcoholism when I was 14, I watched her on the deathbed crying to God that’d she’d stop drinking if He let her live. She was bleeding from every orifice in her body except her eyes as she hemorrhaged and her organs liquefied. They gave her morphine to shorten the pain and suffering.
The kids are 16 and 20.
I’m certain the remorse is sincere. I know my H very well. I knew yesterday at the time he called her that he was going to do it. I was sick to my stomach as he did it. We have a type of psychic connection that I can’t explain. Once, recently, he had sold his car that had a keypad on the door for entry. He’d sold it a few months before. I was home, he was at the apt ½ hour away from me. The man who bought the car called me and asked me for the code b/c he had locked the keys out. I gave him the code and said I “think” it’s right. He called back a while later and said it wasn’t, would I call H. I called him and the first thing he said was the number to me. Just out of the blue, said he’d been reciting it in his head and didn’t know why. We laughed and I hung up and called the buyer back. Those sorts of things happen to us all the time. So, when he is lying, I know it, when he’s being sincere, I know it. He’s never pulled anything over on me… I have on myself. For instance, when he first starts cheating, I don’t WANT to believe it so I look for other explanations. But inside, I know.
Right now I know he’s at home in bed, lightly sleeping, with a scowl on his face. I can see it. I’ll go home at lunch and for sure, that’s what will be going on. He has his gears going constantly trying to figure out things, to make it fit in the reality he’s built for himself. He doesn’t WANT to believe there can be a chance for us, so he’s convinced himself of that. He doesn’t WANT to believe that he can ever love me again, so he’s convinced himself of that. And when he has sudden flashes of tenderness or caring, it confuses him and he runs away. That’s part of the reason he ran yesterday. We were having an awesome time the last few days. Laughing, ML, joking about more ML later that night, talking about common interests and planning a trip on a bike when I get my license. It didn’t fit into his view of his feelings for me and where we’re heading. He HAD to run back to her because it reassured him that his feelings for her were real and the feelings for me are gone.
I agree with Puppy and you Allen, he needs to have me be firm… but I have to do it in a loving way. I have to be the BBD right now. I have to consider what form this will take carefully. If I am too forceful, he’ll see it as me being controlling and proof that he was right and it will push him further out the door. If I’m too kind and loving, he’ll see me as a doormat and cake eat me to death.
My first inclination is to become his policeman, but that is not solving anything. If I constantly monitor him-and he knows it, he will feel under the microscope and controlled.
As for him drinking, I’m going to have to wait for a time that he’s being nice and “himself” and I’ll bring it up. It concerns me that he may be driving like that, and that the kids are seeing it also. Last time I brought it up, he stopped for a few days – sort of to spite me and show me he didn’t need it. But then he’s started again. He only drinks when he’s with her, or missing her. Maybe 2-3 nights a week, but he does not go out with friends without getting drunk.
I agree with Puppy and you Allen, he needs to have me be firm… but I have to do it in a loving way. I have to be the BBD right now. I have to consider what form this will take carefully. If I am too forceful, he’ll see it as me being controlling and proof that he was right and it will push him further out the door. If I’m too kind and loving, he’ll see me as a doormat and cake eat me to death.
So here then is Lesson #1:
No longer are you to operate from a basis of "What will he do if I do/say thus-and-such? How will he react? Will he be ANGRY? How will his reaction make ME feel?" Instead, in every situation, begin to operate from a stance of "What is THE RIGHT THING TO DO in this situation? What is the thing that God Himself would have me do, if He were standing right in front of me?"
And let your husband's reaction be secondary. What is "The Right Thing to Do," and what is EFFECTIVE -- those should be your two yardsticks. Not co-dependent, enmeshed attitudes of "I mustn't make him angry." Once you learn to do this, you will find it VERY liberating!
