Just found out she already filed

[ImprovedRomeo]

Thanks guys. OK help me out with a few options please. But first FM, I haven't given the mediation any thought really. I'm just going to show up and see what happens.

Yesterday DD told me that STBX said to her she's never going to come back and never live at the house again. It really broke my heart because DD started crying saying 'I want mommy and I want mommy to live here'. I told her that even if she doesn't live here we both love her very much. She said 'but I don't want mommy to live at her house forever'. I bet there was some conversation recently about that, perhaps when STBX went to visit her family and grandma or aunt said something to her. I don't know. I just don't think she should feel the burden of thinking about this stuff. She's not even 6yo for goodness sakes.

So here're a couple of ways I could respond to STBX:

1. Send her a 3 part email.
a. Copying and pasting her old 2007 emails and the promises we made to eachother etc.
b. She shouldn't discuss things with DD in such a finality way that it hurts DD's feelings. She's moved on and OK with her decision but she shouldn't expect a little kid to understand and accept it.
c. Tell her that I don't want to be in this relationship either, it's time that I start to find out what it's like to be with women who appreciate me and want to be me. (tough love ala Robx, Gucci and Gnosis)

2. Simply respond to her email and say something about DD's heartbreak over what she told her.

3. Simply respond to her email without saying anything else

Here's the deal with her, because of her roommate (another mom going through D) she's got someone there to constantly support her and therefore it's become so much easier for her to move on. It's like me living with one of you guys. I already know that they eat dinner together, they go out to movies etc together. It's like there's no chance in heck for me. Probably worse than the OM senario because with that chances are the spark would die out, OM would likely cheat on her and then the reality would hit hard. Here I don't have much to work with.

How do you guys see it? What should I do? I feel that if I tell her flat out that I'm moving on and don't want this unhealthy relationship with her...in theory this is supposed to make them feel they've lost you and put them in the pursuit mode but in this case and knowing her she'll just sit back and say 'oh well, even he doesn't want this relationship so I'm doing the right thing'.

I was thinking just weeks before the last bomb hit how it all seemed so normal. I'd hug her and just hold her tight and sometimes she'd let all her weight fall into my arms and I'd pick her straight up etc...

OK OK...dropping the rope...

Talk to me guys!

[whatisis]

SR, I think that you stick to the parenting issue. Inform her that DD was very upset at what she told her and you are concerned about how such news is communicated. End of story, the rest is your hurt feelings and expressing that stuff to her is useless. IMHO stick to your concern re: daughter, nothing else.

[whatisis]

SR, just to add, I know how heart breaking it is to watch your child dealing with this grief. I remember about a year before W and I separated, we had a huge fight and it got ugly. My girls heard the whole thing which I was totally ashamed of. That evening when the girls went to bed, their mom had said good night and gone out. I went up and they were both crying because they had asked Mom whether we were going to get a D and Mom said "I dont' know" and left. I sat them down and said "I think it's time we had a talk girls" I said "you know things are not good between Mom and I and haven't been for a long time. Mom doesn't love me like she used to but I still love Mom as I always have. Sometimes this happens to people when they've been married a long time. I'm going to try my best to be a good husband and Dad and hopefully Mom will love me again but that may not happen. There may come a day when we can't live in the same house together." We then talked about what separation might look like, how they'd live with mom one week and me the next etc. The girls biggest fear was that I would just get up and leave one day like many of their friends Dad's did. I said " I can't promise you that we'll always be together like we are now but I can promise you that I will NEVER just get up and leave you...NEVER." My youngest, who was 9 at the time said, "if my Daddy says he won't do it, then he won't do it. My Daddy's not a liar!" Wow, I almost broke down in tears. I took the bull by the horns and dealt with it. I didn't blame their Mom but dealt with their fears. SR, you might want to sit down and say "we may not ever live in the same house together, I hope we will but it may not happen. We both love you and you will always be number one with both Mom and Dad no matter where we live...." Give her what she can handle without blame. I hope this helps.

[alice444]

I agree with Whatisis, but comments below...

Yesterday DD told me that STBX said to her she's never going to come back and never live at the house again. It really broke my heart because DD started crying saying 'I want mommy and I want mommy to live here'. ...I just don't think she should feel the burden of thinking about this stuff. She's not even 6yo for goodness sakes.

Agreed, this needs to be addressed, ideally by BOTH of you sitting down together, IMO, and talking to DD. This isn't about who initiated what- she's too young to understand the why and she will know the truth later- it's about doing everything possible to make sure your DD feels the strength of love from both of you, even if she doesn't understand now why you're not living together. She will need lots of extra reassurance in the coming weeks and months. If you can, talk to STBXW and get on the same page about this- you can even see a C to discuss co-parenting, etc. if she will go.

So here're a couple of ways I could respond to STBX:

1. Send her a 3 part email.
a. Copying and pasting her old 2007 emails and the promises we made to eachother etc.

No. Why? Do not go here, please, SR. get away from those old emails- as someone else pointed out, they're agonizing and too triggering right now, and she will not listen to anything there- she will claim she was misguided or insane at the time, or something equally hurtful- it will not get you any satisfaction.

b. She shouldn't discuss things with DD in such a finality way that it hurts DD's feelings. She's moved on and OK with her decision but she shouldn't expect a little kid to understand and accept it.

yes. I really think you guys need to sit down with DD together to address this after first talking with the 2 of you- on the phone or in person- about what you will say and how to explain.

c. Tell her that I don't want to be in this relationship either, it's time that I start to find out what it's like to be with women who appreciate me and want to be me. (tough love ala Robx, Gucci and Gnosis)

IMO, this is one of those thoughts you think but don't send. It just lets her know that she's gotten to you emotionally, I think. I think you should matter of factly just discuss DD and the D process as if it's happening and you're on board. Showing any kind of emotion, no matter how small, will not help you feel better. You tell US about how you deserve to be appreciated- and we will agree with you 100%

2. Simply respond to her email and say something about DD's heartbreak over what she told her.

3. Simply respond to her email without saying anything else

I can't now remember what her email was- about the schools? I think these are 2 separate emails- and the non-school one about DD's feelings and emotional state is preferably over the phone. Going back and forth on email (believe me, I do the same thing and prefer it, but sometimes it's not ideal) leaves gaps in time, the option to not respond, etc.

Here's the deal with her, because of her roommate (another mom going through D) she's got someone there to constantly support her and therefore it's become so much easier for her to move on. It's like me living with one of you guys. I already know that they eat dinner together, they go out to movies etc together. It's like there's no chance in heck for me. Probably worse than the OM senario because with that chances are the spark would die out, OM would likely cheat on her and then the reality would hit hard. Here I don't have much to work with.

They may be supporting each other now. Just wait til the friend starts dating someone and (possibly) had no time for her anymore. She still needs to get a real life to truly move on, just like you do. I see you in 2 mindsets, SR. One is that you realize you need to let go and move on and see the wisdom of doing that. The other is still asking "do I have a chance?". I think - strong opinion w/only caring for you in mind- you need to shift 100% to the first and stop the latter- it's making you crazy. If you still have a chance, as you've pointed out yourself, it will be AFTER this whole thing and probably a ways off. Rather than vassilating about your chances now, you need to devote all your energy to 1) getting through this with your self-esteem intact 2) taking care of DD 3) working on yourself and filling your life up so that you are happy with or without her.

How do you guys see it? What should I do? I feel that if I tell her flat out that I'm moving on and don't want this unhealthy relationship with her...in theory this is supposed to make them feel they've lost you and put them in the pursuit mode but in this case and knowing her she'll just sit back and say 'oh well, even he doesn't want this relationship so I'm doing the right thing'.

I was thinking just weeks before the last bomb hit how it all seemed so normal. I'd hug her and just hold her tight and sometimes she'd let all her weight fall into my arms and I'd pick her straight up etc...

OK OK...dropping the rope...

Talk to me guys!

Re-read what I wrote above- tells you how I think... Here's how you can deal with the first question- just don't address whether or not you want to be in this R. You've already told her you do in many ways, correct? She either heard you or isn't able to hear you- repeating it will not make it sink in, will just annoy her and make her feel like you're standing in the way of her moving on. I know, it's easy to give this advice- you know I struggle w/this same question myself, but objectively, it's the right thing to do. You just deal with DD and business right now.

The reminiscing- it's better for you if you don't go there- it rips out a little piece of your heart every time you do. Much, much in the future you will be able to take out these bittersweet memories and ponder them with more detachment. Now, you cannot- please try not to focus on them, they keep you from being whole with yourself and moving forward. I know it's hard, so hard, That's part of what keeping busy and GAL help with.

So, in sum:
- respond only to business, with business
- keep it very very short
- tell her you need to talk about DD, over the phone or in person and then sit down with DD to talk to her together. Take the lead of the mature adult who has his child's best interest in mind. This isn't related to who did what or why the D is happening; it's about, given what is happening that you can't change right now, how will you let her know she is loved and that will never change, and make her feel secure?

((((SR))))

[ImprovedRomeo]

Wii, that is some great advice right there and kudos to you for handling the situation with your kids so well. It's so hard to know what's the right thing to say or do. I really appreciate your advice...and no I don't think your serious posts are funny- only the funny ones

Alice!! I owe you a bottle of Aleeve you're the best!

DD does need a lot of reassurance from us and that's not as difficult as explaining her 'whys'. She said last night 'daddy, why do you and mommy fight sometimes?'. She said that because that's what STBX has been telling her in response to her why question. I don't think it's the right answer because I don't want DD to grow up thinking that it's OK to run away from her problems. Besides, the occasional arguing about stuff NEVER justifies abondoning your family. I'm sure STBX has a quandry because it's probably the easiest reason for her to give to DD. I don't know how to answer DD's why. So far I've beat around the bush and said stuff like 'mommy just wants to be on her own for a while' then comes another why...

No. Why? Do not go here, please, SR. get away from those old emails- as someone else pointed out, they're agonizing and too triggering right now, and she will not listen to anything there- she will claim she was misguided or insane at the time, or something equally hurtful- it will not get you any satisfaction.

To tell her it was all lies even though at the time they were felt so real and believeable. But you're so right that she'll claim she was mistaken or she was insane. I won't send them.

One is that you realize you need to let go and move on and see the wisdom of doing that. The other is still asking "do I have a chance?". I think - strong opinion w/only caring for you in mind- you need to shift 100% to the first and stop the latter- it's making you crazy. If you still have a chance, as you've pointed out yourself, it will be AFTER this whole thing and probably a ways off. Rather than vassilating about your chances now, you need to devote all your energy to 1) getting through this with your self-esteem intact 2) taking care of DD 3) working on yourself and filling your life up so that you are happy with or without her.

You've read me right, that's what FM has been trying to get through my thick head. I need to let her go and believe me I do and feel determined to just move on many times during the day but I feel weak at times and say stupid stuff like that. It is driving me crazy. I think the issue is I feel that if I don't let her know she won't know how I feel about her and later on it'll be too late. The reality is she already knows how I feel about her, this is her decision afterall. After D if it's too late I will have to remember that she knew all along and by me saying it another way wouldn't have changed her mind. She's not a kid.

When my mind is moving slow I ask Alice and she usually knows. Thanks Alice!

[flowmom]

Awesome posts Alice and wii . Nothing to add .

(((HotRomeo)))

[Gnosis]

SR,

I know you have mediation coming up tomorrow. From my understanding this is something you would prefer rather than slugging things out in court. That's understandable.

There is one thing though that I can ascertain from this... She files... you jump. She leaves... you jump and beg and plead. Whatever WAW wants WAW gets.

From the little I've read of your thread, and from the time we chatted did I very rarely hear what you want. Now I could be mistaken... because I haven't had the time you read your entire thread.

In my humble opinion I would reschedule your mediation tomorrow and the court hearing later in the month if necessary so that you can answer the following question:

"What does Romeo want?"

Make it as detailed as possible.
- What do you want out of the mediation.
- What do you want out of the divorce
- What do you want with respect to custody
- What do you want with respect to alimony

ONLY once you are SURE of what you want... and what you are prepared to accept should you be entering into mediation. And once you are sure of it... you DO NOT back down on your non-negotiable items.

As a man who is an engineer you above all others know that if you go take on a job without a plan... that project is going to be a monumental screw-up.

So far you have lived your life to please others. It's time for a 180 in that respect. Become a man with a PLAN.

[ImprovedRomeo]

Gnosis, thanks for stopping by!

The mediation appt tomorrow is mandatory along with the co-parenting education session. The language used in it is very firm. The appt can't be canceled without both parties agreement and it's just too late to change now.

Having said that the way I understand it, it simply makes official our current custody arrangement- which is 50/50 and I'm OK with that. I can always say that I can't sign anything without discussing it with my attorney if things don't turn out as expected. I'm not sweating this one...

The next court date is the more important one towards the end of this month. It's the actual hearing of the temporary court order she filed in which she's asking for alimony+legal fees from me. I'm thinking of switching my lawyer but I feel that's more money down the drain!

As for what I want? Having my family back once and for all would be great but at this point that's unrealistic. In regard to the specific things you mentioned I do have my wish list but I'd rather not post it here in case STBX is reading this.

I definitely need to get out of this reactive mode and even toss some firebombs her way like she does with me. On the surface she's always nice and friendly but then does evil and mean things behind my back. So every action on her part feels like another bullet in my chest. It has to stop.

You're right I *have* lived my life to please her, at least the past 4 years, no question.

[ImprovedRomeo]

found this long post by Robx and I'm copying here for reference:

Do you think the WAS will be attracted to someone who wouldn't move on with their life and would just stay and wait till they came back to them? Is that

attractive? When you move on with your life, when you show them that you value your life just as much as you valued there life, it shows them you're a

strong, confident person - those are attractive traits. When you stop holding on to them and let go and move on with your life and whatever that brings you

including possibly dating new people, it shows the WAS that you are no longer a backup plan or option in their eyes, if you stay behind and wait for them to

come back to you, they will always know that they can take their time coming back if they even want to come back, you give them the power of choice over your

life, again not attractive. When you remove yourself as an option in their life, they don't have that choice anymore, you've taken back control of your life

which is attractive because think about the qualities you're displaying with this action: confident, secure, ambitious, taking a leadership role in your life

again, etc. You're not the backup plan anymore for them, the WAS is then faced with the reality that you aren't there waiting anymore, you're moving on with

your life, and if their new relationship isn't working out and they were considering coming back, this generates fear of loss on their part and makes them

reconsider their current actions.

That's DB'ing.

What isn't DB'ing?

Hanging in there,
writing long letters & emails,
text message "terrorism" (where you text them non stop),
begging, pleading, grovelling for love,
giving them books and articles and telling them they should feel different and they should love you,
telling them that they took marriage vows and they have to stick it out even if the marriage is horrible in their point of view,
moving out of the master bedroom,
moving out of the home to "give them space",
being sad and acting depressed,
etc. etc. etc.

None of these things is attractive,
none of these things is going to bring your WAS back home.

Is the method that I'm describing fool proof, NO.
Is it 100% successful, NO.
You show me any divorce busting method that is 100% successful all the time, it doesn't exist.

Some relationships can't be fixed for whatever reason, the other person may be at a point in their life where they really want something new & different

regardless of how shortsighted that point of view may be.

But they moved on with their life.
They had an affair and found someone new.
And how did you respond when they did these things?
You started working on yourself to show them that you could change, on top of that maybe you started working out and buying new clothes to make yourself look

more attractive physically. You started getting a life to show them that you're an attractive individual with options in your life. You did all these things

when they moved on and chose to end the relationship. You did all these things because they moved on. They discovered they had options and when a person has

options they become more attractive to other people. When a WAS leaves their marriage and starts dating other people, maybe having an affair with someone new

and starts a new relationship all the while knowing that they have you in the background should they decide to ever come back, they know they have options.

That makes them attractive to you because you were busting your butt trying to get them back and then trying different techniques to get their attention,

etc.

In my opinion, why not try doing some of the same things the WAS does, it certainly works on you and every other LBS on these forums so there seems to be a

common effect being displayed here. The person who leaves makes the decision to leave on their own. When you originally started seeing each other and dating,

you BOTH chose to do that, you would BOTH choose to go out to restaurants, movies, parks, do activities together, etc. When you considered getting married,

you BOTH chose to do this and planned out how it would happen. When a person leaves a marriage to pursue other people, dating, have an affair, etc. THEY are

making the CHOICE on their own, they aren't making that choice with you. They are taking all the power in the relationship and choosing to do what they want

and the LBS is left behind powerless. How do you change that dynamic? How do you reclaim some of the power in the relationship? How do you make a WAS

reconsider their actions?

FKAF, for what it's worth, in my own situation,
things only turned around when I took back control of my life and took back the power in the relationship. I tried everything else. I moved out of the master

bedroom and then the home because she asked me to because she wanted "space", I wrote letters, emails, shared my feelings, showed my wife how vulnerable I

was, I begged her to go to counseling, I was needy, insecure, wussy like, bought gifts and generally jumped through every f!@#$%* hoop there was to show my

wife that I loved her and wanted her back. When the WAS has that much control in a relationship, they will never be attracted to the LBS and they will never

be motivated to come back. Marriage vows are just words and when a WAS has that thought process in place and "runs the show", the only thing you can do is to

shake up their reality. In the end this is what is working in my situation and I'm the one now that has the hard time wanting her back after this whole

process, that's the danger of detachment, I reclaimed my life back, my eyes are open now, and I'm not sure I want someone like that back in my life who would

have done all these things to me, my wife now wants me to go to counseling, she wants to move back home, she talks to me everyday: in person, by text, by

email, she does favors for me, she is sorry and is starting to show remorse for her actions, she wants me to forget the past and wants us to move on to a

"great new" relationship for us and our family, she tells me that "people make mistakes", she tells me that she "held her family and friends in higher

priority than her husband and that she knows now that is wrong".

She didn't see any of these issues as problems when she originally dropped the "bomb". She was content to live on planet "fruitopia" while she was in control

and living a great life. When I hit rock bottom, reached my personal threshold of tolerance and that switch inside me finally flicked on and said "she's

never going to change and she's hurting me and she knows it and still doesn't care, why am I still jumping through all these hoops to get her back?", that's

when I moved back home and experienced "batshitcrazy" (and it was an experience), I slept in my bed in the master bedroom and packed all her things and told

her that I wanted her to move out, instead of taking the custody scheduled she so generously gave me, I got lawyers involved and got shared joint custody, I

became more active in my own life, I made her responsible for her own life (the term around here is "she can wear her big girl panties"), she was basically

living an easy life on my dime, what would prompt her to change that if she was allowed to cake eat for as long as she wanted and I was feeding her that

cake?
A free ride compliments of me and I realized that and I didn't want that anymore so I decided things would change.

But that's just me, that's where I am right now.
Life is really good and it's good because I know now that I'm responsible for living a great life and for a long time during the unhappy portion of our

marriage I was miserable and taken for granted and I never took care of myself.

Now I have options, now I won't settle and my wife knows that. Yes I'm a bit of a hard a$$ as well as being a smart a$$, I'm working towards that middle

ground for me. I'm a great dad and I make sure my kids have a great life, they didn't ask for this situation and although a part of me wants to give them

their family back I can't just be married for the kids, I got married for me first and I want a great relationship and my wife is in personal counseling

right now for herself and she's making real changes in her life and I just want to be sure that before I re-enter married life again if that's what I choose

to do, it's for the right reasons and that a relationship will be loving, caring, fun, enjoyable and maintainable because regardless of what anyone says,

marriage is hard work and I don't care if that doesn't sexy, that's reality. Married people get lazy with each other and take each other for granted, you

have to consciously treat each other better, you have to make time for dating which means getting a sitter for the kids, you have to put excitement in the

mix, you have to travel, you have to do things together but also make sure you maintain a personal individual life as well.

How's that for a verbose long winded post ;-)

I hope it helped a little.

[ImprovedRomeo]

It's interesting because I've already been through this once before and was eventually successful in getting my W back after a year and a half of separation. I did use the DB pricipals i.e. not bringing up the R talk etc and I did show her that I was moving on with my life (even had to fake it at times). Ultimately she did come to her senses but I always left that door open and she knew about it. I hugged her, was nice to her, went to dinners with her and DD, got her flowers on various occasions etc.

So the point is...I was her plan B and she knew she could come back to me whenever she wanted. There was a complication towards the end and she was very remorseful and sorry because of what had happened and that was the only time she felt she would lose me.

Now...I won't be her plan B. I haven't brought up any R talk since she left. I haven't seen her for a month and text/emails have been strictly business. I've been cordial and I don't think that's a bad thing. I'll have to deal with her for the rest of my life due to DD so it's better that way. However, she needs to know I'm no longer her plan B. I want you friends to remind me by saying "SR if you do/say this she'll see you as plan B".

In fact, I'm ready for life 2.0. I want to start dating and maybe even find someone special enough to share my free time with. It's time I started putting my energy elsewhere.