Just a quick note to add... I have been trying to keep decent meals on the table and notice the long, hard hours H is working... and have rubbed his shoulders and such occasionally. (In a non-pursuing kind of way.) I've just been trying to match the "affection level" still. I don't take any steps to go further than H in that area (or say ILY) because right after the fire, when I tried to hug him, it's almost like he stiffened up. I would not say he hugged me back really. It was odd to me, a very strange reaction. Thus, I don't try and hold his hand or anything like that.
Yet, then other times he scratches my back from out of the blue... go figure!!!
Sidenote: I emailed H awhile ago and mentioned that I appreciated his hard work and all he does for the family. He didn't even bother replying to that. I know he got the email because he replied to the other part of the email - about dinner. I didn't go on and on or overdo it, but felt I would make the guesture. When he doesn't respond at all - it makes me feel like I shouldn't have taken that step.
Now, a lot of men might say it wasn't something that needed "replying to" as I know you guys don't communicate as us women tend to. However, in the past I would've at least gotten a "thank you for noticing".
I didn't say it to him to try to manipulate him so I'm not going to worry about his reaction to it. However, it does make it harder to want to meet his needs when I get no positive reinforcement to do such.
Positive reinforcement (or negative) works both ways, you know!!
Did you send it in a covert contract to get his reaction of 'Thanks for noticing'? I would say you did, because when it didn't come, you question sending it. You are giving to get. I do it all the time and it's something I'm working on.
When I read your last few posts Sunny, I get the feeling you are waiting for table scraps. I know how that feels and it's not good. Don't settle for scraps. You deserve the steak meal.
Step back and take a look at yourself as if you were a third party looking in on you and your life. What do you see? What would you say to yourself from that position?
MySitch Me-47 STBXW-41 D-5 S-8 ILYBNILWY-01/08 Want a D- 01/09 Physical Sep-01/10 D filed-06/10 Got 50% custody=09/11 Ride that wave!
I didn't do it so much to get the thanks for noticing but more for the validation that it was the right thing to do. It's a subtle difference, but a difference. It's because I'm trying to find that balance of being loving, yet "tough". I do want to meet H's needs, but I don't want to do it and lose respect. In other words, I didn't get down or mad or upset that he didn't say thanks for noticing, but I did question as to if I should've said it - whether it came across as pursuing when I didn't want it to... that kind of thing.
The third party/scraps deal: YES, you're right: I'm looking for scraps and I shouldn't be. That is not what I am going to be satisfied with for myself, as a way of life. I have definitely come to realize that. I guess I have viewed it as such: if the scraps were to come, at least, I would see it as an appetizer to the steak meal being prepared for later. Or heck - at least in the budget for purchasing to be cooked for later! LOL.
As to what to do...what I would tell myself if I were outside looking in, I don't know. I really don't. That's my biggest struggle right now with all of this because I vascilate so much between thinking I need to have patience and saying, "the heck with this!" in my mind.
I didn't do it so much to get the thanks for noticing but more for the validation that it was the right thing to do. It's a subtle difference, but a difference.
I can understand that you think it's a difference. I see them as the same. Sometimes when you are in the middle of it you have to rationalize how it's different. The mind is devious like that. In both cases you are looking for something. One is a 'thanks for noticing' the other is a 'validation from him that it was the right thing to do' - both are something coming from him to you.
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
It's because I'm trying to find that balance of being loving, yet "tough". I do want to meet H's needs, but I don't want to do it and lose respect. In other words, I didn't get down or mad or upset that he didn't say thanks for noticing, but I did question as to if I should've said it - whether it came across as pursuing when I didn't want it to... that kind of thing.
Isn't it amazing how something as simple as thanking someone has now degraded to an exercise in mental energy having to expended on a monumental level. All of this thinking, re-thinking, wondering, weighing, balancing, guessing at implications. Believe me I know - I did it all too.
It's a hell of a way to have to live. More to the point - it's exhausting and it sucks.
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
The third party/scraps deal: YES, you're right: I'm looking for scraps and I shouldn't be. That is not what I am going to be satisfied with for myself, as a way of life. I have definitely come to realize that. I guess I have viewed it as such: if the scraps were to come, at least, I would see it as an appetizer to the steak meal being prepared for later. Or heck - at least in the budget for purchasing to be cooked for later! LOL.
lol. But when you settle for scraps you reinforce the person to keep delivering you scraps. You send the message you are a person who will take scraps with a smile on your face. When inside, you are frustrated, annoyed, angry, losing self respect, etc... (is that how you feel)
Originally Posted By: SunnyD
As to what to do...what I would tell myself if I were outside looking in, I don't know. I really don't. That's my biggest struggle right now with all of this because I vascilate so much between thinking I need to have patience and saying, "the heck with this!" in my mind.
This is fine. But keep searching for your answer. As long as you are searching and don't stop, it will make itself known.
I was in the position of looking for scraps. If I could do it all over again - I would approach my W and say, "I realized I'm walking around looking for scraps of attention and affection. When I saw this I was appalled and disappointed with my behavior. I'm not a scraps person and I won't settle for scraps. When you're ready to come back to this marriage and do the work that's necessary to rebuild it then let me know. In the meantime I'm going to build myself the best life I can." Then I would do just that.
But that will raise the question in your mind - if I do that will that drive him further away. Shouldn't I just be patient like people tell me and give him the opportunity to find his way back? The problem with this thinking is you're now basing your decisions on variables you have no control over.
You can't control his reaction to your choices. You have no idea what the consequences of your decisions will actually be as it unfolds.
So I asked myself, how do I know if the decision I am making is the right one? By basing it on the only variable I know. Me. When I base it on me and don't consider the reaction or expectations of the other person, and leave out trying to guess what it will cause, I can be sure I did the right thing.
If it turns out to be a mistake, I can apologize and make it different. I have the right to make mistakes. I also have the right to be in charge of my own life.
If only I knew back then what I know now....
MySitch Me-47 STBXW-41 D-5 S-8 ILYBNILWY-01/08 Want a D- 01/09 Physical Sep-01/10 D filed-06/10 Got 50% custody=09/11 Ride that wave!
You know what - you're right. The mental gymnastics ARE exhausting and not worth the energy expended on them. That's VERY true. I suppose it doesn't matter if there is a slight variance in what I'm looking for in him, it just matters that I'm still looking. And yes - it's a hell of a way to live. I need to find a way to just stop that.
As for worrying about whether my actions will push him further away - I'm not sure, actually. Yeah, there's part of me that worries about that, in GAL and such. However, I have not been afraid (if you read my threads) of telling him he's free to leave and have encouraged him to do so several times along this journey.
The first time it was when I found out about his inappropriate behavior. I didn't care if it pushed him out the door - I knew I couldn't live with his texting old gf's and chatting it up on facebook. He chose to stay and ended that behavior. The second time, he was saying he wasn't sure he wanted to "work on the marriage, etc..." but wanted to be friends and be here for the kids. I told him that was not going to work for me. I told him he had a week to think about it and if he didn't want to work on the marriage, he needed to move out. He stayed. Since then he has been pleasant and things have progressed in a positive manner...just not to the point I want them to be at.
SO...I have been willing to put up with scraps, so to speak, because there has been a steady progression back to a healthy R. I'm not sure, however, if it is time to push again for the next level.
Quite frankly, I am ready for H to either move away or toward me. I hate Limboland! I want my M but if H is never going to be the husband I need him to be... I would rather him go ahead and get out now. Of course, my deep desire is for him to be the man he can be - the husband and father he has been previously - and work things out. I want that for my kids as well as for myself. If it is never going to happen though, I'd prefer to just move on now.
This is what now begs the question - how long do I give it - how patient am I - before I push to say, "this is enough! Put in the real work or get out." See, H feels like he IS working on the M, I'm sure. He's here - he's participating - he's being kind and considerate in many ways... just not a complete husband to me.
Do I walk around acting happy when he shows me the least bit of attention or affection? No, I don't. I'm still guarded. I AM progressing with my own life in the way I want to - whether the future is with him or without him. Finishing me degree is for me. Spending time with my friends is for me. Being a better mom is for my kids and me...
The hard part of all this is him living here at home and us having this psydo-marriage (for now). With him here it makes it harder to make the distinction between the love and the tough, as I said above.
SO: I've said all of that to say this: How do I need settle for scraps? I don't want to, that's for sure!!! Do I totally withdraw my "wifely" self and just be a roommate to him? Do I make him get out if he's not being genuinely affectionate and giving me the steak???? I would LOVE some practicals on how not to settle because I sure am not going to for the rest of my existence. I firmly believe that if H needs to move out or whatever...then I am ready for that. The kids may not be, which is another story, but I am. I say that without any fear.
I usually see two schools of thought here. One is the be patient and wait approach. The other is the set boundaries approach.
The hard part is the juggling act between them.
It's my age old question - when do you make things happen and when do you let things happen. The first part is related to the boundaries, the second part is related to the patience. (that just came to me when I typed it)
It's kind of like the statement - I will be here to work on our marriage and do what I need to do to improve it, BUT, I need to see some forward motion. It seems we may be on different pages about our expectations of where and how fast this is moving. I'd like to talk about it so those goals and expectations are clear for both of us.
I'm not sure how that would go over. I know in my sitch, my W had quit long before I actually realized it - although my gut was telling me she was just blowing smoke on our 'work on the marriage 'phase'' - I did the work, she did nothing. I will give her I think she tried to try. But she never jumped in and actually try. She was stuck in whether to even try or not. That's one level removed from actually trying.
I guess the answer depends where in the sitch you are and where your H and you are in relation to it.
Can you approach him and talk about it or do you think it would set him off?
Would you even want to?
MySitch Me-47 STBXW-41 D-5 S-8 ILYBNILWY-01/08 Want a D- 01/09 Physical Sep-01/10 D filed-06/10 Got 50% custody=09/11 Ride that wave!
Good thoughts. If I had to say, I would say H flickers between trying to try and trying. I don't think he is fully wanting to make it happen yet there are definite times he is trying. When I see the genuine willingness to try is when I succumb to "patience" mode. One day is not like the next If it were, it would be easier for me to stick to one way of being.
I do feel I have set boundaries along the way and those have worked. Having H adhere to those boundaries makes me want to be more patient at this time. Yet, I know I can not live like this for long. I want more for my life. Also, I'm not sure that allowing limboland is going to make him come around - mediocrity is not something that pushes someone off the fence.
Do I want to have that conversation now? Good question. Given our current house situation, with the fire, prehaps it is best to put that on hold: not forever, but a few weeks, perhaps??? Well, unless he brings it up but I don't see that happening. Part of me doesn't want to have it because I don't want to deal with any more stress/drama right now. However, I know it can't stay this way too much longer without some sort of progression. I feel the fire did put us behind a few steps. Before the fire H had been acting happier...now he's all stressed out again and we have so much we're waiting on with insurance, etc...
Ok, Sunny. I'm going to say this one more time then I'm shutting up. Read Relationship Rescue. It will help you sort out the things you want to know and help you change the dynamic in your relationship. You need to change the way YOU are in your marriage in order for him to respond differently. RR will help you find what you really want out of a M and how to interact with your H to start seeing some results.
Limbo is not comfortable and we naturally want to get out of it, but sometimes it serves a purpose. I challenge you to stay put for a time period that you can determine. I gave myself six months at a time. That helped me be at peace with my M and time to see if I was getting the results I wanted. If at anytime, my H had crossed my boundries then I could re-evaluate sooner. Needless to say, this is all an internal exercise not anything that you share with him.
Lastly, as others have said, you need to get to the place where you are making changes for YOU and ONLY YOU. If he responds, great. If he doesn't, you will have learned something valuable for your next relationship. Do not do anything out of a desire for him to thank, validate, appreciate, etc. He's not capable right now. Do it because you recognize that what you are currently doing is not working and you need to do something different. He will eventually respond. Like the massage out of the blue. That him saying what you want to hear right now. Just don't press him for it.
When I said before to thank him for little things, I meant subtley drop in a conversation "oh thanks for picking up those clothes off the floor, I really had my hands full." Then let it go. Do not send anymore emails thanking him. That is pursuit. A casual quick thanks for something specific is not.
Alright, that's all for my speech. You've made so much progres. I really want to hear that you are one of the successes.
Thanks, Blue!!! Yeah... I got caught up yesterday and spent the day with my friend yesterday rather than reading RR. Of course, that was good too - GAL. lol
I promise before I do ANY more mental gymnastics I will read RR and keep my mind/mouth shut! :-)
Got it - on the "thanks" biz. My email thanks was a "subtle" one, not a huge deal. I mentioned it "in passing' in an email regarding several other things with the boys.
I guess the hard part, mentally, is that I REALLY am happy with myself right now and I WANT to be happy in my R too. I'm just ready to have the life I want, including M, but I guess I just have to settle for being happy with me...and that's OK too.
