I asked her point blank if she wanted to divorce me. She was clear in her no. Then I said that I think separation is a bad idea, better suited for dissolving a marriage gradually than in trying to repair it. She said she felt like I was flip flopping, making her into a yoyo.
Don't ask her what she wants unless she brings it up first. She will win this everytime until you learn the game.
PH- Do you want a divorce?
MrsPH - NO
PH - Why do you feel that way?
MrsPH - _____ ---- -_____-- _______ _______
PH - I can see how you would feel that way? How can I help you _________________?
Take notes and work on the things her feelings told you and where she asked for help. Don't try to fix, listen, validate and then act with conviction - create connection.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I don't know if my wife is in a fog, or just in denial. She says she feels that way.
So she feels like she is in a fog or in denial?
Either way those are her feeling, NOW! Have they always been that way? You seem to assume that her feelings now will NEVER change. That is an expectation.
IMHO, and this IS mind reading, she IS in a fog. The fog WILL end. When? I can not say. But DB101 will help you get past this time. Leaving your home may not.
Detaching, living your own life, loving her from a distance. That is what you must do.
Not pressuring, controlling trying some tactic to win her back. There are no tricks in this.
More about the FOG. If I told you she was sick and had a terrible disease would you leave the house? Would you have more compassion for her? Pin, this is not about YOU, it is all HER. Until she comes out of the FOG, you must do DB101. Patience is the name of the game.
Instead of moving out of the house how about being NC/Dark/Dim? Treat her now just like she does not live there anymore. Or like you don't live with her anymore.
Have you ever read the Pursuit and Distance thread?
So which is it guys all about Pin or all about her.
Pin, sent you a message in the alt.
M22,H45,W45 S21/18D12 Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties and at the same time confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
I've been married 11 years to my wife, and we have 2 daughters, ages 8 and 5. After another weekend where she was distant to me, I asked her the essential question: Are you happy? She said no, but she didn't want to talk about it since she had to get up to work early. I couldn't sleep very well and woke up around 2am, went and watched a movie downstairs.
When she got up, she saw me, and I told her I couldn't sleep. Then I asked her if she loved me, and she said "Of course I do, you're the father of my children." Even an idiot like me could see real trouble ahead. She said we would talk when she got home from work.
After putting the kids to bed, we sat down, and I got the ILYBINIWY speech. She said we've grown apart, and she didn't "love me the way a wife should love a husband." I was devastated.
This wasn't out of left field though. I had known that she wasn't happy with parts of our marriage, and neither was I. We just were never able to make the changes needed to be happy.
I'm pretty sure there's no OM. I haven't seen anything that would lead me to think there is, or has been. She's 36 and I'm 46, and I'm on my second marriage. This is her first.
I'm confused, hurt, lonely, and don't know what to do. Reading the forums the last week has made me feel so sad for everyone here who has gone through so much pain.
I don't want to give up, though I think she's halfway there. I'm focusing on NOT pursuing her, just trying to give her as much space as I can, given that we're still in the same house. I've been dieting and walking to get in better shape, and trying to think in terms of 180s.
The hardest part for me is that she's always thought of me as unaffectionate, and withdrawn. So my natural urge now is to be attentive and affectionate, despite the fact that this is going to make her feel pressured and pursued. But if I don't give her attention, she'll think that it's more of the same...
We've gone to one counseling meeting with our pastor, and we've also had one meeting with a marital counselor.
regardless of what you may hear, your wife is not experiencing MLC, you have killed the attraction between the two of you because of unattractive behaviors you have been displaying for quite some time.
Attraction isn't just based on how you look, men tend to be more visually stimulated attraction wise but with women, attractive behaviors and characteristics tend to be prime factors in stimulating attraction with them.
You've been at this too long for very little or no results.
Let go of her, not in a sad, sheepish way but in a way that says "you want out so badly? I'm not holding you back, the door is there, please use it at your earliest convenience because I don't want you or need you to be somewhere you don't want to be."
If she wants to label what she's doing as MLC, depression, finding herself, whatever, who cares? You can't control her, what she does or says and seriously, you wouldn't want that responsibility of controlling her either, too much trouble and hassle for no reward.
You can control you, let her go, move on, the quickest way to getting a wayward spouse to notice you is to remove yourself from the picture and move on with your life without them. To do anything else is to communicate low value and pursuit to them and you are better than that, we all know this.
You are running away when she's point blank telling you what she wants and needs.
You almost sound like you are trying to punish her for not being where you want her to be RIGHT NOW. I see you not getting your way, so you are giving up.
Why do you spend so much time on these boards? Just for $h!ts and giggles? Or to save yourself and your marriage?
I do not see you getting YOUR desired results/expectations met by physically moving out.
And like fb2 said.....You can change your mind.
Anytime you change your mind because of your self respect and your values you do it from a place of strength. That is a good thing and it's going to be hard for her to not respect that decision.
PH, don't move out. And you mentioned dating? In your sitch, you might as well just light your marriage certificate on fire and file divorce. Based on that email from her, you are obviously doing something that is working...why would you sabotage all your hard work now?
I'm not trying to punish her at all. I have no doubt about that today. And I don't feel like I'm running away. I feel like I'm giving myself the space to continue GAL and working on my issues, while also giving her what she is explicitly saying she needs right now.
I'm on these boards to save my marriage. Plus to heckle John when he makes a pinheaded move.
Part of DBing is trying something, watching the results, and when something isn't working, stop doing it. Then trying something else. I see this as more of that. Staying in the same house isn't working right now. It might work in two months; it might never work. But it isn't working right now. She's feeling more and more pressure by my presence. Feeling more and more expectations from me.
If everyone could have heard her voice on the call this morning, how she sounded when I agreed with her, when I said I had a glimpse of how she's feeling. One conversation can change a lot. I might have undone several weeks worth of damage in that one phone call. And we've both agreed not to date while separated. If I go out, it'll be in groups, just fun, no "dating." Social stuff that I've always felt awkward/shy around.
And I disagree about her email being proof that something is working. I think it proves the exact opposite. Everything I've been doing the last 3-4 has been an abject failure, from a DB standpoint, and from a personal growth standpoint for Pinhead.
You also both agreed to be committed to each other til death do you part when you got married, just because you made an agreement you don't have to believe she will hold true to it.
Sometimes past records are indicative of future performance.
My two cents, never move out when a spouse wants out of the marriage, if she wants out so badly, let her find her own way, all you're doing now is enabling her at your expense, what goal does that serve, what benefit is achieved by this?
You want to GAL, great, do it while living in your own home.
Bro, in my own sitch, my wife asked me to move out and I did it, hoping that she would see how dedicated I was to her and our relationship/marriage - it did not help anything. In fact once I moved out, she became horrible and increasingly disrespectful to me, however she is now, expect her to be several times worse towards you as she gets used to a great life with out you.
When did my situation change? When I moved back home. When I said enough is enough. When I told her that if she wants out of this marriage so much, that she can move out, she can file for divorce and I will sign any divorce or separation document she throws in front of me because I was tired of the whole situation and wanted it to be over soon. I then proceed to box her stuff up, loaded up her van and sent her to live with her parents. I then filed for joint custody of our children and i got it. I then limited my interactions with her, while living in MY OWN HOME with my children. I found my friends again, I got involved in sports, the gym, my work, my children, you name it, I was too busy.
As for her, having to fend for herself and take care of herself without me being there to be her safe cushion to fall on and rely on was the wake up call. She wanted out so badly, I showed her the door literally, I gave up, I assumed it was over, I stopped caring, what finally stuck in my head was that I was putting her on a pedestal, thinking that if I continued to show her I would give her the world if she only gave me a chance that it was the wrong thing to do. You need to let go of someone who doesn't value you or the relationship they have with you, not feed them, clothe them, house them and make agreements not to date others, blah, blah, blah.
You drop the rope, cut the rope, throw the rope out the goddamn window and assume married life is over and move on, that is what works more times than any other method here.
Guaranteed?
No.
But nothing is guaranteed.
Would I employ the same method again instead of wasting time doing other things?
You KNOW it!
Do what works, not what you feel you should do because you think you are listening to her.
You really want to listen to her? "Wife I've listened to you, I'm thinking separation is a good idea and moving apart and living separately is a good idea but I've changed my mind, I like our home, I want you to move out, it seems only fair considering the fact that you've been unhappy and wanted out for so long, I won't hold you back, I'll help you pack and move. I've made up my mind, this is what I want, I want you to leave."
Regardless of her reaction and what she says, she will get it, she will finally see that you understand, not only that, she'll fight moving out more times than not, because in her mind, the idea will be triggered that you've finally realized your personal value, and it's important that this concept is communicated. Right now you're communicating that you have no value and you should be the one to move out and make everyone else happy. Wrong move. You should have the "awakening", you should be the one to realize that you shouldn't move out if you're not the one asking for a divorce and uttering crap like "I can't love you the way a wife should love a husband" or "I love you but I'm not in love with you" or "us getting married wasn't a good decision", etc.
Just because they follow their script, doesn't mean you have to follow their script and listen to what they want you to do. Listen to them by doing what you want to do which includes wanting out of the relationship as well if they want out so badly, you want out even more.
Just my 0.02 cents but I'm telling you, it worked for me and a few others that had the balls to implement a plan that was counter-intuitive and didn't feel like the right thing to do originally, but now looking back, it is something I would recommend to anyone in the same situation.
Those who will say this solution doesn't apply to everyone and you can't assume that "one size fits all", haven't actually tried it and confirmed this.
You're right on the money. I've really only been db'ing for two months; with the last month almost the opposite of what I really should have been doing.
I made the mistake of seeing what I wanted to see when I told her I was done a month ago; then showed her that I wasn't done at all.
Moving out will bring a lot of clarity to our situation, at least for me. I don't know what it will bring to my W, and though I hope it helps her to figure out what she wants, I don't expect that. She needs to figure our her own path, like I am with mine.
I'm comfortable with moving out now. Not because I think it will jar my wife, not that I want to date a bunch of available women. But because I'm not going to hang around someone who can't, doesn't or won't be honest with herself about what she wants.
When I was going through chemo, my motto when dealing with BS and CB was "life's too short." Somehow I forgot that when I became healthy. Time to revisit that motto.
