Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[25yearsmlc]

My question to you would be, how many years has it been since you have had "good" (engaged, enthusiastic) sex pretty much whenever you wanted it?

Never. Never seen a woman have an orgasm. Never had sex "whenever I wanted it". I've had "somewhat engaged" and "somewhat enthusiastic" sex early in my marriage, which was more like "the fun of novelty" on the part of my wife.

Ssmguy, forgive me, truly, for asking this. But do you know what you are doing in bed? I only ask b/c you say you have
"never seen a woman have an orgasm"... that's amazingly UNfortunate for your w and any other women you've been with, (as well as you.)

But am I to assume you've been with other women and none of them had one either? If so, then it may well be YOU, but then you are lucky in a way, b/c b/c there are books on HOW TO make love and please your woman out there. You are not powerless!!!

If your w is the only woman you've ever been with then it's hard for us to know what the deal is. (And you can't really count call girls b/c they are professionally trained to fake and they do a good job of it, evidently)....



Which is why I'm asking the question of this thread. I've never had the kind of sexual relationship I now realize I could have had, and could still have. Not sure I could ever get my wife to that point. But I just want to understand myself and what is realistic and unrealistic, not just with my wife, but with anybody.

How are you "now realizing that [you] could have had a different kind of sexual relationship"? What triggered this realization?

FWIW, I don't think it's alright not to enjoy your sex life. You deserve a shot at a good sex life but before we make it all about your wife, let's dig a little deeper.

I'm a little younger than you and maybe your w, but I enjoy ml a lot. All 3 of my sisters do as well. We seem to be HD women and the brothers I've discussed this with, are HD as well.

However, my libido did drop noticeably about a year ago. (Before that, it was about 75% of what it used to be, which was high. But yes I can honestly say it had dropped some...and I've read that the first year or two after the birth of a child it also drops. I found that to be true for me (though DURING pregnancy, my libido was never higher! Same goes for my sisters...go figure)

Then the "new" drop in libido about a year ago, came fairly dramatically. At first I wondered about a new medication I was taking for back pain maybe lowering my sex drive...but then I thought

maybe it was menopause, and therefore was "natural", (so what?)
I mean, to heck with that.

I saw my doctor b/c I figured if it was "just menopause", I wanted some hormones to get my old libido back.

(Mind you, even when the libido felt close to nil, like after my dad died, I still craved the intimacy of sex. But I didn't initiate much at all).

Anyhow, long story short, my doctor found the cause of my hormones being out of whack, (not menopause but a benign tumor on my ovary)

so we are so glad I got it checked out and removed. I AM feeling like my old/young self again. There are treatments for women out there, which your w may be interested in learning about. It's like saying "I eat to live, but I don't taste my food." If it's her, and she gets treated and then gets true sexual satisfaction, I think you'll see something miraculous.

As for ML, every day, know that-

1) it is TIME consuming to have GOOD sex.

(BTW--"Quickies" are not that fun to have often. They are one sided and messy and...well, that's it-and one sided sex, over time, would feel lonely & get frustrating).

Back to being time consuming- compared to my 20s...

There are usually a whole lot of things on my plate that weren't there in my 20s.

For instance, we have a 14 y/o at home, so privacy matters, and h works EARLY in the morning and I'm a night owl, so there are other dynamics and compromises. Plus my libido peaks at night and his is in the a.m.

But it's Not just about pure libido. Though my libido is restored to a large extent, it does take my "engine" a little longer to start up so sex takes longer now. In a lot of ways, that's FINE-even better in some ways. But once I get going, I have more stamina for it than I did in my 20s...(IOW my capacity & appetite for more O's is greater).

Once upon a time, a 10 min love making session could be mutually satisfying, however short lived. Hurried sex was sometimes all one had time for, with 2 jobs and little kids...but now, it has to be longer for both of us to get our "cookies"...so there is a time element here. Do we have time for a mutually satisfying experience?

2) Secondly, sex every day would lead me to get SORE (like I did on our honeymoon) and that has other negative dimensions, like urinary tract infections or vaginal irritation. There are things to help with that, but it's an issue.


The thing is, I now realize I was very accomodating to my wife's limitations in the early years and I assumed she'd improve over the years. I totally bought into the bogus advice from magazine columns which said that women peak sexually around age 40, etc.

Please take no offense at this question, for I mean none, and I know most men are very touchy on this topic...

but, how did YOU improve over the years, as a lover? What has your w actually SAID about enjoying or not enjoying it? Has she asked for anyting? Is she from a culture in which women were not supposed to enjoy sex? Does she worry that she has hygiene issues? Ever try to ML right after a shower? Or in it? And does she have a basis for comparison as far as sex is concerned?

I think it was the author Balzac who said "there are no frigid women; only ignorant men." Perhaps you truly are not powerless here. Wouldn't that be good news, in a way?

Plus, there are toys that help some women. A brother of mine says his w needs that to "get all the way there" so he has that and they manage to have a good time in bed. Often enough for him, and he is definitely HD.

[25yearsmlc]

It sounds more like an emotional issue than strictly physical. When was the last time you actually "made love" and not wham bam thank you maam sex?

Hmmm, that distinction has changed gradually. Last intercourse was about 15 years ago.

if she won't let you manually touch her or orally, then have intercourse again, for as long as you can & in as many positions as you can try

to see what helps, and see if her mental or sexual obstacle to pleasure and orgasm, can be addressed.

There's a lot to be said for facing your lover and it feeling more natural and intimate.

And see another sex Therapist...

[ssmguy]

25yearsmlc, thanks for the quick response!

Yes, I think I know what I'm doing in bed. I've read countless books on it, seen videos, and even talked to other women for frank advice. The only problem is my wife strictly does not let me touch her breasts or her groin area, ever. She explained long ago that it had to do with messages about "you shouldn't ever let a boy touch you in those places". She's been to therapy about these issues, but she never got over it. For one thing, she doesn't really see that it's necessary, as she used to be comfortable with intercourse, allowing only one part of my anatomy to touch her "down there", and only for intercourse. Of course, she hasn't allowed intercourse in 15 years either.

She likes back massages, but none of them (100's) has ever led to anything else. Not that it should, and not that I've pressured her to have it lead to something else. But you'd think that at least once, the intimacy of it should lead to at least sexual foreplay, or more comfort with permitting it.

As for other women, I met my wife in college, and we married right after. So yes, in high school things were pretty conservative for me and I never got beyond "polite" dating. Same for my wife. We were both studious nerds with limited social lives, in contrast to our pot-smoking free-love friends of the time. And some of my female friends in high school complained about how the guys they went out on dates tried to "feel them up". Well, gee, I thought, I'll try to avoid that sort of thing when I start dating. Little did I know at the time that the girls who loved getting "felt up" by their boyfriends just happily kept their mouths shut. And so I got the wrong message.

What triggered the realization that I could have had a different kind of sexual relationship? It all started coming together for me when I started researching our issues (before we went to any therapy) and I saw a reliable survey (Chicago sex survey from the 90's) statistic which said that most women usually have orgasms with their partner. I was shocked. After all the late night comedy jokes about women always having headaches to avoid sex, and my wife's AGREEMENT with those jokes, I was lulled into a complacent belief that orgasms for women were probably just fleeting, hard-to-obtain events which normally didn't occur. I had assumed my wife was pretty normal in this regard.

And all those magazine covers for women, promising new sure-fire ways to achieve amazing orgasms? I dismissed it all as sensational hype. I didn't know any better. And being an ace student and going to a top college didn't disabuse me my mistaken notion because female orgasm is not required knowledge for any class or entrance exam. :-D

I've tried talking to my wife about this many times, but she's sick of me bringing up the topic. She says it makes her feel so guilty and inadequate. And she quit sex therapy and didn't want to continue. She said it was too stressful. There was an instance of sexual abuse in her early childhood, and this may be playing a role.

So now that she knows that I know it upsets her to bring up the topic, she knows that if I bring it up, I must WANT to make her upset. That's the way she sees it.

I've done everything she's asked for in bed. She hasn't asked for much. I wish she'd ask for more. I've offered to do more and she's not interested. I've offered to get her toys, but she's not interested. The first time I suggested it, she was disgusted, like it's only for porn actors and perverts. Funny thing, she didn't have a problem going to porn movies when we first met in college. In fact, she even suggested going to a few back then. I think she was in a phase of doing it because it was "cool". But now she's the complete opposite. Talk about bait and switch!

Have intercourse again? How? She hasn't permitted it in 15 years. I can just see the look on her face if I suggest that maybe it's another position she would like to try!

See another sex therapist? I've suggested it many times. Not happening.

And what does "H goes ALASKAN 05-07" mean? I can guess, but I don't understand the reference.

[ssmguy]

25yearsmlc, if my wife had the attitude about sex and getting help for it that you do, we would have solved our problems years ago.

I should also add that she used to give me HJ's, but wanted nothing in return for herself. But after a while, even that was too much of a chore for her, and she didn't see why I couldn't just take care of it myself. She sometimes gives me a playboy type calendar for my birthday, as if in recognition that such interests on my part are normal, and perhaps also to distract my attention away from getting any ideas about getting frisky with her.

[25yearsmlc]

SS,

What do you want from this site if you have "already tried everything"?

I mean, are you asking for permission to cheat or divorce? I can't give that to you.

I can say that if all the things you have written here are an accurate and fair representation of the facts,

you're in a sad sitch.

I do think your w needs help and I do think the sex you did have, wasn't very good for her, obviously. So neither of you have been with others?

Even without an orgasm (and regardless of the article you read, "most women" don't have them "most" of the time from intercourse alone. But Few women have never had one from any source.)


Past sex abuse? It's over used as an excuse for present day problems. I mean get help and fix this if so. It's crucial and unique to a marriage.


I don't really buy the past abuse excuse or she'd be pushing it more, so much as past baggage about sex in general, and present day lack of interest. Tell her to talk to a priest or pastor...

Of the species in our world,

Only human females seem to climax, and if that's not a sign from God that this is a beautiful unitive feature, not merely procreative, I don't know what is.


Bottom line is this--is this a dealbreaker for you?

IF SO, TELL HER SOON or she won't be able to get help in time to change your mind.

As for "refusing" to have intercourse or any other intimacy, what is it she expects you to do or feel about that? How does she "refuse"? Are you being clear and persistent or does she "resent" that too? How does she express this?

(SIDENOTE---If you have given your w "hundreds" of back massages without it leading anywhere, EVER,

I'm struck by that. I CANNOT get a massage that lasts more than 4 minutes (max) without it either going somewhere, or ending...)



Tell her how much this hurts you b/c it is a daily dose of rejection. It affects how you see yourself as a man and you don't want to spend the rest of your life untouched in areas of your body only she can touch.

IOW, you are not "allowed" to go elsewhere for this type of touch, and she's not filling the need-sooo

what is it she expects you to do with that? Repress eternally?

Has she said it's okay for you to have an affair?

Keep going to a sex t for YOU, for now...

and tell us what it is you need from this site.

[ssmguy]

25yearsmlc,

What do I want from this site? It helps to get validation that I'm in a sad sitch sexually. Everything else -- kids, finances, relatives, careers, vacations, hobbies -- are all going very well and we have lots of good times otherwise. So it's easy to sweep this problem under the rug and figure I'll deal with it -- somehow! -- down the road. At any given moment, the problem is to big to solve, and waiting another day can't hurt.

In fact, you could say it's an unexpectedly unfortunate result of how we learned in therapy to keep our sexual differences from spilling over into other areas of our lives. In the end, those people for whom sexual problems blow up their whole marriage, at least they go on quickly to new relationships. They may be picking up the pieces in so many other ways, but at least they solve their sexual problems that way.

No, neither of us have been with others. But that's not due to religious pressure or anything. We met young and married young.

I agree with your comments on sexual abuse. She doesn't seem to want to do anything about it other than to use it as an excuse, among many other excuses.

No, not asking or needing permission to cheat or divorce! ;-)

Is it a dealbreaker? Yeah. Have I told her? Yes, years ago, and she said she'd think about it. And then time would pass... etc. The problem is, I'm not prepared to throw out everything, rejigger my whole life, property, kids, etc. and get a new partner just for the sex. And apparently I'm not alone in this thinking. Dan Savage, in his recent podcast (# 251) mentioned an unscientific survey which suggests that there is a reduction in the rate of divorce for sexual reasons. Perhaps due to the economy, but perhaps also, as the survey suggest, it's because with the Internet and cell phones it has become vastly easier to find people to exactly meet your needs on the side. And Dan thinks it may not be an all bad thing.

All my options suck really badly. So it helps to just talk and hope. My sex t says I'm not alone in my situation -- not by a long shot.

[25yearsmlc]

oh you are not alone.

I just think it's weird that a woman down the street from me, (true story) was shocked by her h's a...

then admitted that she had not had sex with him for 3 years...

and I know a man who said he was a low sex drive man and wasn't that into it...and his wife had an affair and left him for OM AND HE was shocked...


Guess I'm shocked they are shocked...kwim?

[25yearsmlc]

otoh

own your part in it. There IS a chance you just misread her physically and though of course she OUGHT to speak up

many people can't...plus in a few years you will need Viagra (not an insult but a reality or so I hear)

maybe she's hoping to outlast that phase but since there are meds now, it's not a phase. You will probably always want something she's denying you.

I'd bring it up again and tell her it's really bringing you DOWN....and it's unfair.

and it is...you are willing to do what it takes to make it better for her, if not downright good.

Tell her you want to try things...how can she seriously say no?

Is she attracted to you? That's important to know.

Hang in there

[ssmguy]

25yearsmlc, thanks so much for all your responses. Feels nice to have someone else consider my situation, even if it may not be possible to offer any solutions!

Yeah, strangely enough given the situation, she still finds me attractive, though without the sexual charge of our earliest days. She recently helped me buy a suit, and commented that I look good enough to be a male model for suits. OK, flattering, but not a hint that it's going to result in any kind of intimacy. In the old days, she would have come over to give me a playful feel after a comment like that. But now it's just a verbal observation, with no followup whatsoever.

Sure, I can try to tell her things I would like to try. I know that won't upset her as long as I phrase it as "things I'd like to do". If I say they are "things we should do", or things "we need to do", or if I suggest that I'd be disappointed if we didn't do them, than she gets upset. She doesn't want pressure. In the past, when I've mentioned things I'd like to do, she would respond with a compassionate, "Yes, I know you do", in a tone that suggests she's sorry she can't accomodate. So, yes, I do occasionally remind her of what I'd like, to leave the door open and let her know that I haven't forgotten what I'd like to have with her.

But saying it's bringing me down and that it's unfair, that puts pressure on her and makes her feel bad and guilty, and then angry and depressed. I've tried that many times and it gets nowhere.

Yes, I kwim about those shocked people! True stories of married people often defy logic and even imagination. Like the ABC TV report about 5 years ago on low libido. A guy married a stripper he was crazy about, and a few years later she complains that he doesn't want enough sex! Huh?!! :-) I thought I'd heard everything! One thing that was an eye-opener for me was to see on Internet marriage boards how many women (as opposed to men) are basically in my situation. I even bought the book (by MWD of this board herself), "The Sex-Starved Wife" out of fascination.

No insult taken on the Viagra thing. Considering my health (BMI 20), I don't think my wife is counting on any kind of drop-off in that area any time soon! I'm into endurance sports, and can outlast most men half my age. It's all about blood flow and cardiovascular health. I think there is great variety among men with regard to need for Viagra. Some need it as early as their 40's, while a few others will never need it. I don't know where you heard that all men need Viagra by a certain age, as you seem to imply. That is certainly not the case. In fact, as you may have heard, recent medical wisdom is that first onset of ED at any age should be seriously regarded as a possible leading indicator of cardiovascular disease.

[Cyrena]

25, I'm one of your biggest fans, but I do want to comment on a portion of your post:

"Past sex abuse? It's over used as an excuse for present day problems. I mean get help and fix this if so. It's crucial and unique to a marriage.

I don't really buy the past abuse excuse or she'd be pushing it more, so much as past baggage about sex in general, and present day lack of interest. Tell her to talk to a priest or pastor..."

I know that you are an extremely compassionate person in all other areas of the board, so I wondered whether you had much experience with the effects of sexual abuse?

As a counsellor who works with sex abuse victims in the legal system explained to me, when a child is being abused, its primitive brain stem (the one that asks only "am I safe/unsafe?") kicks in and orders "freeze." The child often feels nothing, sometimes seems to leave its body, and doesn't register what's happening on an accessible level. Each incident of abuse can leave a blank, as if time elapsed that can't be accounted for.

In my own case, I knew each time "something" happened, and was aware that some were "worse" than others. I didn't realize that I didn't know exactly what went on for another 15 years--I just assumed I didn't want to think about it, not that I was actually unable to access those memories.

When I did have some flashbacks, I was horrified--I had assumed "not much" had happened to me, certainly not what I was now remembering. Apparently, it takes a measure of trust in one's spouse to be able to access those repressed memories--but the effect of having them was to feel that the flashbacks were CAUSED by my H's sexual activities (they only occurred at that time). Fascinated, I saw how when my H touched me, I could freeze so completely that I couldn't feel a thing--clearly a skill I had perfected while being molested. Yet it is difficult for the primitive brain stem to separate past from present, to know when to yell "Freeze!" when sex ceases to feel safe.

Yes, it's possible to get beyond this point. Realizing that your H will not and should not tolerate a lack of sex in the marriage just because you haven't dealt with your issues yet, is a great motivator to do so. However, it is EXTREMELY difficult to grapple with an issue from which a fundamental element of your brain is attempting to protect you.

Anyhow, I couldn't let that comment pass, 25. Now carry on with your good work!