Over the weekend I started writing a synopsis of what happened between Jeff and Cheryl Scruggs leading up to their reconciliation (as described in their book). I think this is of interest to people like you, Sanderika, and me who see forward movement but our WAS's just can't "turn the corner". I hope that you don't mind if I put the first installment on your thread. I will post the final installment in the next few days with your permission.
GAG
"I�ve been reading parts of a book titled �I Do Again� by Jeff and Cheryl Scruggs over the past 2 weeks. I wanted to get some insight into what might be going on inside the mind of an angry XH as he begins to change the way he thinks about his XW.
This book describes what happened to the Scruggs after Cheryl had an affair and D�ed her H Jeff. The D process took 2 years and during that time Jeff had no idea there was an OM. He was very confused about what had happened and was deeply wounded that his XW had lied to him for more than 2 years about the A. Three months after their D, Cheryl realized that she really DID want to be with Jeff and her A ended. She wrote a letter to Jeff describing that she realized that she had made mistakes in their M and asked him to consider working toward reconciliation. He was so hurt and angry that she had lied to him for so long that he couldn�t look her in the eyes at that meeting and for a long time after that when they were dropping off their daughters at one anothers� houses.
About 4 years after the D, Jeff began to realize that he had contributed to the problems in their M too. He realized that he had been clueless about the levels of depth that were possible and necessary to maintain a healthy M. He was at the point where he could finally forgive Cheryl but wasn�t anywhere near thinking about reconciling. It was after he accepted responsibility about his contributions to the problems in the M that he could actually look at Cheryl without feeling that he hated her. He began to make eye contact with her, probably one of the first observable signs that things were changing inside his heart. At that point Cheryl approached him with the thought of trying to reconcile, but he rebuffed her saying �We�re doing great handling the kids and seeing each other all the time��..But I think it�s time for you to give up this idea (reconciliation) and move on with your life��. I just don�t think reconciliation is the answer�.
About 1 month after this exchange Jeff started accepting Cheryl�s dinner invitations on a regular basis. Jeff began spending 4-5 nights/week with Cheryl and their 2 daughters. Jeff would never initiate the invitations. Instead one of their daughters would always extend the invitation. Jeff wrote that when he allowed himself to begin having dinner at Cheryl�s house with the girls, he was �curious yet strangely excited.� He battled his feelings constantly. He enjoyed the time they were all together. He was getting used to being around Cheryl again. He was happy when the 4 of them �hung out� together. He knew Cheryl wanted more, but he had a hard time going there in his mind. He wrote �Things were just right as far as I was concerned. (He) became strangely passive because of (his) ambivalence, allowing Cheryl and the girls ��call the shots.� He let the girls call Cheryl to invite her to dinner at his house because he couldn�t bring himself to do it. He wrote �The truth was, I wanted it too. But I couldn�t do it. On my own, I probably wouldn�t have been able to make it happen. One of the issues for me during this period was my sex drive. I�d always been attracted to Cheryl physically, and the last several years hadn�t done anything to change that. I never said anything to her about it, but because the time we spent together naturally increased my desire for sex, I constantly battled my desire. Yet (classic male that I am) I knew that if we crossed that line, our R would progress from this wishy-washy unidentifiable state to something deeper, and I wasn�t sure if I was ready for that. So I kept my struggles to myself����..(I�m editorializing a bit here, but since it�s my understanding that men equate sex with intimacy, I would guess that physical contact (sensuous kissing and sexual contact) is a big hurdle for men during reconciliation.)"
Popping to send belated birthday wishes, Im pleased for you that H made a special dinner and treated you with the respect you deserve as his wife and mother of his children. I wont get carried away with what ifs! But good treatment of you is a big step forward and the removal of OW in general is good for your overall family, your D & S will appreciate it.. Huge hugs to all you ladies here, Im back at work now so will endeavour to pop in and out and check on your progress!
____________________________
W 47 H 47 M 24 T 30
Once lost but now found and happily married again!
Wow GAG, thanks so much for that summary.....I really want to get that book now!! And yes, of course you can post here. Invitations through the kids struck a chord and the lack of initiation too. I've definitely heard move on with your life and I'm not right for you, you deserve better.
Rabbit, thanks for the birthday wishes. So not sure what's going on here!!!! Anyway, I can only deal with one day at a time and I certainly have no expectations although I am concerned that the next Ms Perfect will be on the doorstep soon. H is pretty quiet and not overly social but it didn't stop him last time.
H hasn't told me she's still here or gone; he hasn't even told me she's moved out. I think while he doesn't broach that topic it gives him time and space.
H is looking at come to D's major meet in a few weeks. that will be interesting. I am just concerned that I provide a safe haven for him for that and then I get shoved into the background again; as if I've served my purpose. I am considering telling him that so he knows I have reservations.
H is looking at come to D's major meet in a few weeks. that will be interesting. I am just concerned that I provide a safe haven for him for that and then I get shoved into the background again; as if I've served my purpose. I am considering telling him that so he knows I have reservations.
I think if you tell him you have reservations you are communicaitng that you DO have expectations. You need to do what is best for your daughter and yourself, as he is still Mr Crazy to some extent, remember, even if he appears to be 'waking up'.
In that case I would follow your gut . . . Does you d want her dad there? Would it help or make her feel tense? I suspect you both do and don't, for good reasons.
I was watching a show over the weekend on Oprah's new channel. Dr. Phil was requested to answer a question from an audience member:
The woman asked if she should take her H back after he has had an affair. She went on to state that they have been separated for a little over a year. The affair has gone on for over two years and recently ended. Once the affair ended he wanted to return and now pleads with her regularly to take him back. There is also an issue over child support and alimony payments that he is trying to get out of. She stated that she still loves her H deeply but does not know if she wants him back and does not really know what to do. You could see on her face she really wants him back.
Dr. Phil said: "The only way you can take him back is if he feels and expresses deep regret and remorse for AND acknowledges the pain he caused you. Only if he is willing to accept the fact that he cheated and accepts the blame without putting any blame on you and apologizes with humility and clearly shows actions and emotions that he wants to do the work necessary to make a commitment to you. YOU will never, ever forget what he has done and will not be able to make it work without your H's full commitment to the marriage. YOU will be able to forgive over time (if he does the work) but will never, ever forget."
He asked her to ask herself if she could accept a reconciliation knowing he has cheated.
You could see she didn't really like her answer and that if time had allowed she would have loved to have been able to talk one on one with him for the entire hour.
Ladies, I don't currently feel any of us have an H/XH that are in a place where they can do this for us. I have to wonder if they ever can be the H's we need. I have to wonder...How long is all this going to last? I know how much total time I have invested. If I knew he was actually working on returning it would be a no brainer. To date I have experienced so many highs and lows. The changes are noteable but are they real???? Where are we going???? Why can't he leave OW????
I could feel a "thing" going on with him that was not good for us.
I learned this morning that my H is taking OW to Florida on vacation. They are leaving tonight.
Sanderika
ME48/H48MLC T 33y M 28y S16 OW 8/7/05 Bomb 8/16/05 Sep 9/05 H f'd D 10/3/08 D pp'd 1/20/09,7/24/09,12/4/09 D dismissed 2/5/10 H served me D papers again 9/4/10 D dismissed 9/26/11
It was interesting to read your notes from Dr. Phil, Sanderika. However, I am really concerned for you. Your H's recent pull back is because he is guilty over his trip to Florida. That's what always happened with H whenever he had guilt over something, he would go MIA. Hugs to you as this must be so painful for you, once again. You have been an incredible support for me and I hate to see this pain for you.
For me, I have entered total 'confusion land'. H skyped again last night to talk and at his initiation we had a whole discussion on his inability to forgive himself. I will re-read the convo history and give more detail later but essentially I interpret that he can't live with himself with the guilt over what he has done. He wants me in his life, he is trying really hard but he doesn't know where I fit in the future. I let him say whatever he wanted and tried hard to affirm him because it became so apparent that he is confused. I didn't ask him about ow but I was so, so close. He is definitely concerned about others and how they feel about him and what he's done and he kept saying that they were well justified in their thinking. He just can't forgive himself and when he feels pressure he retreats which is no good because he doesn't deal with the problem. It became apparent in the convo that he does care for me and he has deep remorse but that the pain and damage I have experienced is nothing compared to the pain he feels and this will inhibit any possible future. I can't see a way forward if he feels the need to retreat.
I am in a very terrible place today, feel like being sick to my stomach.
I think your H is having a break-through. I think you had a very honest conversation with him. I believe that it is a good sign for him to be so open and candid with you about his emotions.
Somewhere I read recently, maybe on this BB, that in order for a man to return to his wife and marriage he must face his guilt and shame.
When he is fully ready to accept the pain he has caused to others including children and family and friends AND admit he is guilty and ashamed of his choices and actions is when the healing begins and they begin to emerge from MLC.
Another big boost in the journey is for the LBS (us) to admit and show our H that we forgive him. We also need to be able to admit to them our responsibility with the problems we may have created which helped to bring about the separation in our marriage.
We have to be willing to share in the shame and guilt without throwing blame on them and behaving all righteous about the infidelities and the behaviors that ensued as a result. We must have the ability to nurture their emotions and show them without any waivering and doubt, we have to validate their feelings. These feelings are very raw and serious to them.
I picture it this way.....We have to hold their hand/hug them and console them. Like a child with a hurt and/or guilt. We have to be able to prove to them that together we can tackle anything and together all will be ok.
Cas, I think you have an opportunity here to make a difference. This might be the first "real" time since your situation began. It could very well be that H is ready to try.
(((((Hugs)))))
Sanderika
ME48/H48MLC T 33y M 28y S16 OW 8/7/05 Bomb 8/16/05 Sep 9/05 H f'd D 10/3/08 D pp'd 1/20/09,7/24/09,12/4/09 D dismissed 2/5/10 H served me D papers again 9/4/10 D dismissed 9/26/11
VERY interesting.........Is this the closest you've come to a real R talk with H since he left? It makes sense that he would broach this topic with you if OW has just left the picture.
In reading your post, the following questions came to mind.
Originally Posted By: dolphin_05
He wants me in his life, he is trying really hard but he doesn't know where I fit in the future.
Do you have a sense for whether he just wants you in his life as a "friend" or possibly more? We all know that at this point he will not want to encourage you with words (ala Jeff Scruggs in the book excerpt I shared with you), but what does your "gut" tell you?
Originally Posted By: dolphin_05
It became apparent in the convo that he does care for me and he has deep remorse but that the pain and damage I have experienced is nothing compared to the pain he feels and this will inhibit any possible future.
Do you have a sense for whether the pain your H says he feels is the result of his remorse over having left?...........or is it the pain that MADE him leave?.....the inner pain he has yet to resolve? Do you have a sense for whether he has made any progress in resolving the inner conflict that caused him to leave?
Originally Posted By: dolphin_05
I can't see a way forward if he feels the need to retreat.
I may be wrong here but it seems as though your H's revelation to you was precipitated by (1) your going dim recently and (2) living with OW which probably forced him to face how unhappy he was with her.
You don't need to do anything dramatic right now. Give H some space. I hope to send you the next excerpt from "I Do Again" in the next few days which I think addresses where you may be now. In the book, as events unfold, Cheryl ends up staying at Jeff's house with their D's during Christmas week and they have a wonderful time. Afterward, Cheryl returns home expecting to hear from Jeff and to receive invitations to do things together over the next week. Instead, she hears total silence. She becomes EXTREMELY frustrated, calls Jeff, and gives him a piece of her mind. Jeff is taken quite aback because he has been thinking seriously about asking Cheryl to begin dating. When she explodes at him "out of the blue" he crawls WAY back into his man cave and tells himself he would be crazy to consider reconciling with Cheryl..............My point here is to remind you to "keep your cool" with H over the next several weeks. That is the best way to keep your options open and it sounds as though right now you don't know what it is that you want.
Congratulations on having H validate to you that he DOES have feelings for you. You have been right about this all along!
