WTF?!?!

[MHL]

You know what I sensed from the above exchange Denver?

She doesen't trust you.
You don't trust her.
You're both on your guard.
Pushing buttons and testing.
Not very attractive, same ole stuff as 6 mos ago.

Hey IAP,
Not sure what it was that you thought was unattractive about what Denver did or said up there.

Time to do something different. But what?
You obviously both still care - (somewhat).

He is doing something different, he is not going to go with her and her son to the concert because it causes him pain...

and he told her honestly.

[InAPickle]

"W: "All I took from your email is that you still didn't tell me if you're dating or f*cking someone else. I guess I'm just supposed to assume you are and that secrets are still how you communicate with me. At least I was honest with you when I started dating.""

"W: f*ck you for maintaining a relationship with the b!tch all these years even when we were together." "

This is a perception of you from her side that isn't going away very easily is it?

Funny, my own WAW came clean about her EA when she wanted to be "honest" with me so she could go and visit OM - WTF I thought at the time. You're asking my permission to get a D and carry on with OM?

You see she believes she's always been honest with you, while all these years you've been secretive about your female friends. Depending on one's frame of mind, it's very tempting when an opportunity presents itself to even the score.

This is something she's going to have to get past, and I don't know what you can do to help it. She has to "feel" she can trust you. That's going to be an uphill climb. You're going to need a lot of patience Denver.

Take care of yourself.

[MHL]

I buckled and replied to my W's last email.

My reply:

"W, I said in that email that I am not dating this woman. I made the decision to stop even hanging out with her because I am not ready and because I didn't feel right about it. And you should also know that this is someone who I hadn't spoken to in 9 years before I ran into her at my h.s. reunion.

I honestly don't know why you are so angry or so surprised W that I would open myself up to moving forward with my life and consider dating after 9 months of doing everything that I possibly can to show you that the only person in the world I ever want is YOU... only to be told that I am not wanted in return.

I've said it a million times W, but I will say it one more time... I WANT to be MARRIED to YOU... and ONLY YOU. I don't ever want to spend another second with any other woman. EVER. You are the love of my life, I want to spend the next 30-40 years making wonderful memories with you, and I want to grow old with you. I never want to let stress, work, or anything else in my life come between us again. I have dedicated my life over the past 9 months to learning where I messed up and how WE can make things between us great.

But what I want means nothing unless you want the same thing. And I cannot continue to live like I have for the past 6 months. I will not share you and I will not live in an open marriage. What you want me to do is too painful and unhealthy for me. You have been very clear about what you want for your life through both words and actions. I cannot make decisions for myself based on anything but those words and actions. I need to begin moving forward with my life."

Denver,

This is by far the best communication you have had with your W that I have seen.

You kept your cool and more importantly your LOVE for your W drove the choice of your words........

BRAVO !!!!!!

Remember what MWD says....sorry I do not have the page number....

"It is the smallest consistent actions that get noticed the most."

Remember to give this its proper time to work.......

You may have to say what you said up there 10 more times before it sinks in.

You are watching out for your feelings while at the same TIME you are communicating with your W in a firm but LOVING way.

I absolutely think you did the right thing by not going to the concert, and you even said why........you did not leave your actions open to interpretations by her.

Keep yourself centered, there will be more tests to come......

don't read any malice into her words.......she does LOVE you and she does MISS you. If she did not she would not be so upset and angry with you.

Can't have Anger without Love........if she did not care she would not be angry.

This approach did not work for her so she may try a softer approach next.......that will be even harder for you. Be prepared, send the same message over and over and she will hear it eventually.

Sorry, yesterday was hard......that day is behind you......what is on your plate today?

Still would like to hear more about YOU.....

What do you want in your life???

Is it to hike Mt. Everest??

Jump out of a plane? (with a parachute )

Run a marathon??

Meet the Dalai Lama???

Start to tell us what YOUR dreams are, what are your goals in life, what are your aspirations???

Hope this helps.

Cheers

PS: You're doing good!!!!

[Truegritter]

"W you know where I stand on all of this." <---- if you believe you made yourself clear by your email. Only you can say.

That inlcudes comments meant to make you feel guilty about not going to a concert with SS. (stepson is a button for you Denver)

That inlcudes questions about what, where, who, when and why you are doing anything. (other woman is also a button for you)

So is ("it's always secrets with you Denver")

How many more buttons did she push?

Enough to break your promise to yourself and respond.

WHEN SHE KNOWS SHE CAN STILL PUSH THOSE BUTTONS SHE KNOWS SHE IS STILL DEALING WITH THE OLD DENVER.

More from you about how you changed which you decided you needed to tell her again.

She ain't listening right now Denver.

Did you do better? yes.

Did you do your best? Did you do what you said you would do?

You don't need me to tell you that.

OK so we can dwell here again. Or

Answer me this:

What made you respond to her again? Emotions or your values?

Strength or self doubt?

I am not trying to bust on you D there IS one right answer here among all these opinions about the details of what to do or not.

That lies in your ability to put your fear and self doubt away and stand up for what you believe and value.

Everything else is just noise. Everything else is a non starter.

Is she ready to commit to your M? No?

Then

"W you know where I stand on all of this."

Calm. Cool. Collected. Confident. (nickel Gnosis?)

[Harrier]

Since my thought/advice usually go over like a lead balloon, no harm in putting it out here.

I disagree with MHL, by a lot.

First of all. I'd cut the DB speak in the emails to your W. It doesn't sound natural and things have different meanings outside this world that others may not get.

Second, I think you are being too much of a lawyer in your responses to W. I know it's hard, but you gotta take off that hat and start just being you...the good you.

Ex. You said that you told her, "W, I said in that email that I am not dating this woman."

This is what you actually said.

"I haven’t meant to avoid that question W. I just don’t see why it really matters to you at this point. ...., I need to move on with my life. That is what I am trying to do.

As far as dating goes, I was very honest with you that I am opening myself up to that happening. "

Do those even remotely sound a like. Especially with your history (her version) I'm going with your W.

I think you tried to be too cutesy in the first email.


Lastly, I'd stop telling her how much you've suffered this 6 or 9 months. I looks like you completely disregard her feelings over the years. She knows you are hurting you don't need to tell her every time. She knows this is difficult.

Have you ever once acknowledged that the process is difficult for her?

I'm going to say this, and you might think I'm an a-hole, I don't think you've changed as much as you think you have. Personally, I look at my situation 'I can always do better'


Also, I'd like to get some thoughts on this from everyone. Den has a way of being really honest with his W about his motives for not doing things? i.e. "I can't be around you." Is there any benefit to just giving her a white lie like. I'm working an case and really need to focus on that tonight or do an actual GAL activity. I don't think it does him any good to sit around to wait by the phone/email just to tell his wife that he can't be around her.

[Valeska19]

I keep coming back to "where is Denver? What is important to him about all of this?"

I realize you use this board to vent/get advice.. but what are you doing to GAL? How are you making yourself happy? Tell us.. or otherwise my advice is to "quit dwealing on your sitch! It's gonna drive you nutz!"

I think you were direct about your feelings but I'm curious to know if you sent it out of an emotional reaction. I truly believe that you are tired. Remember though.. these changes are to make YOU a better a person. Regardless if you are m or not, you will keep fighting, caz this is about YOU. IMO your emails come across as frustration that your w isn't taking notice to your hard changes.. or if she is, she's not doing anything about it.

I honestly don't believe for a second that our WAS don't know what they do to us. She knows she hurt you Den. She knows you love her, she knows you're changing (otherwise she wouldn't be around!). She's just not ready to do anything about it. She's not ready to change HERSELF. So what can she do instead? She can push you. Perhaps pushing you away, or pushing you so she can have peace of mind that her actions are right. Who knows.

All I'm seeing is fear coming from your wife. I'm not one to usually quote scripture, but this just rang so true to me the other day. It's from 1st John.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love"

I'm still learning what this means in my life, for my w, my sitch, everything. I just think it's something good to work towards. Perfect Love.

IDK.. that's my rambling .02

[25yearsmlc]

actually,

I think MHL, Truegrit AND Harrier all raise valid points.

You probably know your email was too long.

She tuned it out or skimmed thru it to see what she wanted to see.

Keep it MUCH shorter

IF there comes a time when another reply is actually needed.

There's a good point in there about HER view of you and secrets NOT changing...what's with all that? You never cheated---or what? You flirted and "made her feel" insecure? Is there some truth to that, and or, is it mainly her own inner crap? Make that clear.

IF you are going to communicate with her again, address THAT, BRIEFLY...(= no more than 2 sentences.)

Just keep the rest very simple with "you know where I stand and my reasons for x"...

and why isn't it a good idea to be busy with GAL and using THAT as a reason for not being with her for some given event? I think it is a good idea.

BTW, what the heck are your 180s and GAL Activities?
(I keep forgetting to ask that, which is weird.)

What are you doing for you?

Do you see how that MIGHT help your marital situation, but will certainly help your personal one?

Why isn't that a good enough reason?

Back to the basics of DBing....going dark, keeping your small actions (and words small too) consistent

and GAL!

[25yearsmlc]

ps

had not seen Val's post before I posted mine. (Good one Val).

Good point Denver. Where are YOU in this, aside from the fear and pain of it all?

Which is also something you do Not need to keep telling your w. This sukks for her too, believe it or not.

She ain't a happy camper.

My other thought is about your ss. I hope you can maintain something good with him when the dust settles. I doubt he "gets" this. IF you do talk to him about it, keep it simple and short & assure HIM of your love for him...

(and of course, as you know, don't bash the w.)