Thought it would be done by now...part 2

[lifejustgothard2]

25yearsmlc- can I get some feedback on the conversation I had with H?

[lifejustgothard2]

I put a hold on filing. Can I can get some input? Am I out of my mind? As many of my friends like to say?
My most convo with H is a few posts back. First time in months since I had saw him and also had a convo at this length. Thanks.

[lifejustgothard2]

THinking about confronting him at his usual hangout tonight. He promised to come and see kids yesterday and never did or call. THought I could bring a few pics of the kids hand them to him and walk away. What do you think?

[lifejustgothard2]

anyone out there? I need some input please. Quick

[Queen_of_Swords]

I think you ought to leave it alone
You can't force him to care.

[Walking]

Hi Life

Girlfriend, it's time to get some more detachment happening.

You talk to him and he [censored] you back in ... then he lets you down again.

He's got a long way to go to make it through his journey - and you'll keep yourself and your kids safest if you just get out of his way while he's self destructing.

I know how much this hurts, but he can't help you right now - he's in a bad place. You have to look after you right now, and maybe for quite some time.

((((hugs))))

[AJM]

Hey Life. Have you thought of it this way? His words are not consistent with his actions. That doesn't foster trust.

Does he mean what he says? Likely at that moment in time he does. Will he take action on them? Not if you pursue. Not if he doesn't have to, he won't. He recognizes things, but doesn't seem to have hit bottom. He won't if you are there to catch him. You are not quite there, but you're not quite gone either. Understandable, but not very productive or positive for you either.

Give yourself permission to let go and let him work himself out. If you don't you might get somebody who looks like him but isn't. He needs to complete his journey else you have nothing. Like something out of a S King novel, right?

No action for you right now towards him. Lots of action for you and towards you. Work on you right now and let things be where it concerns him.

AJ

[25yearsmlc]

My dear Life,

This is a long post and I so apologize for that. You asked for my feedback.

I read your posts several times and gave it a lot of thought. I took notes so this may be repetitive, so sorry about that too.
And I might be wrong about some or all of this. I concede that up front...I hope I am wrong. Here we go.

The good news is the talk you two had & his actions right after, were very clarifying.

The bad news is, I think your h is just stalling & probably will go on as long as you let him.

Since you asked for my opinion, remember, "Opinions are like armpits. Everyone has a couple and sometimes they stink". But Here's what I believe.

Your h is extremely good at manipulating & deceiving people, especially you. (Maybe even himself.)

I agree that he is very depressed. But I think separate and apart from that depression, perhaps he's just lazy emotionally.

Regardless, Remember the way we deal with MLCers-

Pay attention to Nothing they SAY, and maybe only half of what they DO.

Your h's words look like attempts to keep you in a holding pattern. Why? I don't know and I don't think I care why, do you? Heres the real question. What was the meeting about?

He didn't say he wants a reconciliation or a divorce. Oh...soooo, What's new? Nothing about coming home now or soon or in the future.

I'm thinking it was to probe your holding pattern and to keep you in it...sorry.

I don't think he'll file for divorce-b/c

1) He doesn't want to look like a bad guy and 2) it'll cost him more money.
and 3) it requires energy, decision making and movement on his end.

But you said You are hurting financially, which means he benefits from not filing - and you don't.

Neither do the kids...so HE won't file. He's hoping you won't either.

So far, it's working.

But Do I believe he has a diabolical plan to stall as long as possible?

Frankly, I don't think he's got a plan so much as a holding pattern for as long as possible- to drink as much as he wants, to be with OW as much as he wants and to avoid looking at the wreckage as much and for as long as possible...

SOME of that is in your control...like how long he gets to pretend he's married. And how long you'll risk the kids financial security (or what remains of it.)

As for reconciling with your h, wow, you are way ahead of this if you expect it soon. All we "know" is all we can go by. So- What do we "KNOW"?

We know he left you and the kids. He clearly left all of you (not just the m) as he has had just about as little contact as possible with you and them.

We know He doesn't bother to pretend he's coming home at all soon. In fact he indicates it will be "too much" for you to forgive--meaning too much work for HIM. So we look at his--
Actions?
He's with OW and he drinks way too much. Now he's getting wacky with the family finances. Those are the actions...

Life, I know this is hard--dear God, I get that. But this is not...that complicated...sorry my friend, I really am.

He won't/can't/hasn't/ confront the issues that lead to this in the first place, whatever they are, including the whole alcohol consumption & lying about it, and for me, that says a recon has a poor chance of success

IF it ever were to begin....

Think about it....If he came back, I doubt he would want to see your pain or hear about your needs b/c it makes him uncomfortable and guilty AND, when it comes to relationships, seems like he's kinda lazy right now...how's that for a life partner and father of your kids? Feeling secure?

But Life, here's a thought...what if the costs (i.e. the discomfort) of staying away, were higher than the costs of him returning home? Iow, what if you filed and he got very very UNcomfy? All we know is that doing nothing is gaining you nothing - and it's risking a lot (at the very least financially).

That would mean you address his "whatever is less UNcomfortable for ME" approach to the sitch. Personally, I think this guy can go on and on in this limbo land. For all the talk about HIS pain, apparently he's comfortable "enough" to DO nothing about "all the pain HE feels". As for your pain, he's done nothing to indicate it matters much. He says one thing but does nothing. Even what he says, isn't much.

Right after his tear filled emoting & all the talk of his shame & remorse expressed for what he's done to you--the lying, (drinking-barely addressed)...oh and his opinion about how hard it would be for YOU to "completely" forgive him for the pain he caused you by seeing the OW,
after all that talk and all the tears and sobbing pain and suffering he feels (never mind you) he returned to OW.

Ouch...really, ouch.

Life, again, I could be so wrong. I hate putting this out there. But he's just not moving. And
life, He may feel remorse but...what does he DO about it? He goes to her.

Life, what do you think? Is that the action of a remorseful man?

His words about forgiveness from you not being "complete" enough...are unfair but telling.
On one hand, it's so selfish & weirdly weak to whine about someone else not forgiving us but--- then what? We just refuse to work AT ALL for it?? "Oh, geez it might not happen anyhow...so why bother at all?" That is his M.O. now..."why bother with ANY effort, without a guarantee?"

Life, the thing is, IMO--even if you gave him a guarantee that you'd welcome him back with open arms with the smallest effort, the tiniest of movements on his end, I think
he'd come up with a reason Not to try .....like saying you won't forgive him "completely"...and

That just reeks of a relationship laziness.
With all the wallowing in self loathing and pity routine I think he wants as low and few expecations of him as possible..[b] I agree that he is depressed and sounds miserable, Life. If he's acting, then he missed his calling.

But is that really the point now?

Life, it's not about HIS dang pain anymore. Even if it were, he's not willing to do squat to fix it. Sorry...

Now, It's about the kids pain and protecting the kids and yourself from his future "issues".

What are you doing to protecting you/your children?

IDK when or if he'll return or if this is who he is now, or always was, or what.

But I'd like to know what the heck the meeting was about anyhow.
HE asked for it right?
[color:#FF0000]I mean, what was the point -- since he declared no new information or intent?

Life, I can't help but think it was to feel you out -legally and financially and MAYBE to make sure you are still waiting...and to stall.

Sorry sweetie but you have asked me what I thought and I did read your post 3 times and thought a lot about it before posting. OF course I could be wrong. Of course! And you know, I HOPE I AM!!

Re the legal issue you asked about, here it is...

UNLESS your h promised you more money than you'd get by filing,

AND YOU PHYSICALLY POSSESS THAT MONEY IN YOUR HANDS WITHIN 48 HOURS
--literally-
then I see no reason to stop the filing process or not to start it...

Otherwise, you are still enabling him and you put you and the kids' security at risk.
Face the source of your fears here. Be real. What are you really truly risking by filing?

You fear filing b/c you think it could mean you Lose him...right? Well

IF YOU GET NOTHING OUT OF THIS POST, PLEASE GET THIS BELOW MESSAGE:
Life, if you get nothing out of this post, please grasp the below message...please
I believe that

Your h will Not do anything BECAUSE you filed, that he would not have done anyway, (or hasn't already done).

Whereas BY NOT filing, you put your security & the security of your children at risk.

[/b]
Life,
(Was he always this way? Did you guys ever have normal fights and or yell or get a little heat in things or did he numb it or withdraw?? Who is this man?)

I Would like that info if you recall it clearly enough...and
What can the children expect from him IF HE SHOWS UP?


See, here's the other crazy unfair thing for the kids..
The kids don't have amnesia. But they'll pick up on the fact that daddy doesn't like to feel uncomfortable.

I think they won't be allowed to make him accountable or even uncomfortable" with their needs or questions...or pain...

IF they do, I worry (and THEY will worry) that he might disappear again.

So they'll deny their feelings to and around him (guess who gets to face those emotions? YOU...been there, done that. It stinks big time).

But What a Nice set up he'll have. Come and go as he pleases, mis-characterize you or them, for asking anything of him or even just telling him that they missed him and don't like it when he's gone so much.

Maybe he'll react like a loving parent ought to,
and try desparately to repair the damage he's caused...

OR maybe he'll use it as an excuse to bolt - and call it "nagging" "criticizing!" or "judging!" on their end, or yours...not his fault.

In my eyes, this is a potential reason to file b/c it will pressure him to show up and have visitation with the kids, to man up.

Do you get that? (You don't have to agree, but do you get what I'm saying?)

His words of remorse for the kids and you is probably real,
but then it circles back to HIS "PAIN trap" of suffering and shame..seehow hard it would be for HIM to return??

b/c YOU won't forgive him completely...see how that justifies his remaining away and is kinda Your problem/fault? See how stuck he is?

So will he be bolting after a brief return, when it gets tough (and it will get tough b/c that's life after a car wreck)

On one hand, He's kind of making it your task to forgive him completely,

(never mind what he does to earn back the trust, he's nowhere close to wanting to even discuss that)

but he's making it impossible for you to accomplish it. He insists you won't do it (when he says "completely" i almost feel he's saying you won't forgive him "right"...which makes you wrong)...

So is probably that your h wants zero accountability for forever? He wants "complete" forgiveness for what he's done (i get that) but also for what he is doing NOW...geez,

I mean going back to OW just minutes after crying about the pain he causes you by being with OW---- STILL not seeing his kids- b/c of his shame about NOT seeing his kids. That's "crazy lazy".


looks as if he's making it NOT HIS JOB to repair the relationships with the kids. Instead, It's their job to forget the damage, or to cope with it on their own...


(I keep harping about being fair & protecting "the kids" b/c I don't think you believe YOU are sufficiently deserving...an issue to address later)

BUT---"Believe none of what the MLCer SAYS and only half of what they DO"...

He didn't bother to say he wants to reconcile, Nor does he say he wants a divorce. So he gets out of having to take responsibility for that NON choice too. Remarkably lazy for a guy in so much pain.

Life, What has changed since the other day when you were ready to file? Is it that you have more energy for DBing? You can go another day or round of limbo? Okay, That's cool. I accept that.

But if its something in HIS behavior that makes you think he's coming towards a recon, can you tell me what that is?

I'm asking you b/c I don't see it, but you sound as if you do.
I'm thinking it wasn't his words and it certainly was not his actions.
But What else is there that made you feel he is coming home?

Was it the tears?

Is that really enough for you to risk your financial future & security for? And the kids' theirs? B/C he's depressed and cried?

Or is it the hopes of a loving m you still cling to & don't want to let go of,
even in the face of repeated present day betrayals/deceptions?

while I do hold out some hope for your m...

IMO, ---IF ---A TRUE RECONCILIATION IS POSSIBLE,

it will NOT happen by this continued Limbo land & this enabling of yours.

TO ME, the riskiest thing to do is stay connected to him. So Detach.

Detach emotionally, physically, and financially.
Protect the kids as much as possible

--(of course you must keep their expectations of their dad as low as possible-- So If he shows up for a visit, he's a hero- "YAY DADDY!" But if he doesn't show, they don't know it, and YOU cover for him.


I believe that it is necessary to do this for the kids sake, so I don't disagree. But it sure IS a pattern.

Where AND When you can change that pattern, you ought to. Wherever you or the kids can avoid being victimized any longer, you need to do so.

His actions are all that would matter to me at this point. His actions are not the actions of a man on his way home. His words? Too confusing and manipulative to make heads or tails of them, and besides, MLCers words mean nothing anyhow.

His Tears? Save them for OW

it is so unfair that you have to care for and comfort the children he wounded AND

comfort HIM for his self inflicted wounds? Why you?

Oh, b/c you are his best friend...Geez life, if this is how he treats a best friend, he must not have many.

And who'd he sleep with that very night? Life, I know you mean something to him but he's no friend of yours.

And he's no husband either. Sorry.

Hey,Who knows? Maybe filing will protect you AND him, from making more terrible choices he'll live to regret, (or die before he can regret them).

Maybe it'll all sink in to him that in the long run, NOT repairing damaged relationships is actually harder, and way lonelier and far more painful, than taking the so called lazy way out.

After all, if he begins to get very UNcomfortable being away from you guys, even a stuck, sad h, might pick himself UP and move forward...

I genuinely believe IF there's a chance, that's how it would happen.

Life, may God bless and comfort you and yours.

[lifejustgothard2]

I do appreciate your feedback very much. Everyones.
Yes, I do believe he is stalling. I wanted to believe it was because he doesn't want to D but yes his actions show otherwise.

I am done pretending. Done letting him pretend.

He does play the victim. Yes, he I believe he is turning it around on me that I can't forgive so in the end it can't work. I do agree that is a weakness of mine-holding a grudge- and I have worked on that. But, that is no reason to destroy a family IMO. I think because of this I held on a little longer hoping he would see my changes.

I guess the reason I saw hope is because of how miserable he was. Or, maybe he is a good actor. I saw remorse.

He is no way ready to address the drinking-"he doesn't have a drinking problem". I believe he feels tremendous guilt for what he has done. But, not enough to make things right.

Does he think he will just live happily ever after with OW? DOes he think she is the answer?

When we argued in the past it was usually just him retreating and not talking. Very rarely any yelling.
He was typically very sarcastic and condensceding. Hard to live with. Even my oldest has said that. NOthing was ever good enough it seemed.

Why do I want that back? I don't know. I want my family together. I am willing and have taken responsibility for my part and am willing to do work. He isn't. So that is that.

I plan to sign MOnday morning.

[seeking answers]

Life,

Your H and mine sound like they could be brothers.

I so agree that if filing is the only way that you can protect your kids and yourself then by all means do what you have to do.

Your H is very early into his journey and you can do yourself a favor and dial down the expectations to zero. He's no where near done yet. MLC is such a long process. 2 years is considered a short one. I believe there are also different levels as far as the depth of the MLC. Some seem to go in so much deeper than others.

Your H is still in Replay. He's confused and depressed and trying to use alcohol and ow to fix himself. He hasn't figured out that only he can look internally and face his issues and recover his happiness, that it doesn't come from external forces. Sure ow and booze temporarily deaden the pain, but it keeps returning to haunt him. It's where his remorse and tears come from. He can't figure out why the longer it goes on the less the band-aids help.

On some level he may be realizing that he messed up but he has no tools or ideas on how to fix it. He hasn't traveled that far yet.

There are no guarantees that he will ever come out the other side, but if he does and you are both interested in Ring, a D paper won't stop you.

Your H may be waiting for you to file so he can say I'm not the one who filed, she did. Even if he does, remember the reasons you did. It was to protect the children and yourself while he's in this destructive mode.

I know your fear, just remember at this point you really don't have a marriage. It doesn't mean that you won't have a chance to build a new one in the future with him if you both so choose.

Please go into this with no expectations that it will wake him up. From what you report, he's no where near there yet. Would you really want him back if he was forced into it or would you want him back when he was ready to commit to really working on the M?

(((Hugs))) this is tough stuff...