Do what I can but still have questions 4

[soccerwife]

Another new thread, and another "year" of elementary growth, I forget what grade I am in now... must be 3rd grade?

Anyway, As third graders do, I have much more self awareness these days. I am a separate, decision-making person who has the ability to choose between right and wrong. I have also identified areas where I still need further growth, knowledge, and practice.

Today, I began Mort Fertel's Marriage Fitness Tele Bootcamp. I have finished phase I in one day, which is possible because I have been emersed in DB'ing for a month now.

DB fans who have been wondering if Mort Fertel offers anything new will be pleased to hear that so far, the information in his program is the same. Put your M first, love unconditionally, stop pursueing, do 180's (although he goes about that one differently). Further, Fertel's materials (CD's Teleconferences, book, workbook, etc) are all pretty redundant. I do like that there are different medium to learn from because everybody learns differently and repetition is key. And he does have really great stories and anecdotes but he is a little long-winded.

I will wait to make the ultimate judgement when I am finished with the whole program, but so far, DB seems to be the better deal with the online community and affordable individualized coaching. However, there is no cost too great when it comes to repairing a family, so I sprang for both. Plus how else could I actually say that I tried EVERYTHING.

I will keep everyone updated.

[Forrest Gump]

"Just wondering, when only the LBS is the one going through self discovery and the marriage ends up repaired, the WAS may never actually figure out what went on? Does a DB'er ever tell the WAS what they went through to save the M? If they don't ever fully appreciate how the LBS felt or how things changed, aren't they more likely to repeat their own mistakes?"

One would hope that in repairing the M that the story comes out. It should be one of the things that brings you closer together. It is like an old friend that did something to you in the past.. and you finally sit down and discuss it and put it behind you. What trips people up is that most of the time people just can't let go of something. The "work" in front of you is mind-boggling. This is why being prepared is so important. Where you are.. what you are doing now.. is the easy part by far.

[25yearsmlc]

"Just wondering, when only the LBS is the one going through self discovery and the marriage ends up repaired, the WAS may never actually figure out what went on? Does a DB'er ever tell the WAS what they went through to save the M? If they don't ever fully appreciate how the LBS felt or how things changed, aren't they more likely to repeat their own mistakes?"

The marriage doesn't get repaired and (my word is "restored" for a marriage that is truly repaired) or restored without the WAS realizing some things. ANd yes they would be more likely to repeat their own mistakes and the LBSer will repeat THEIRS if neither does a lot of growing and work.

So the question is more "how do we do the work needed to repair the M" and in that work is the growth and getting the tools for conflict resolution and whatever other issue they had that lead to the sep, in their arsenal. WIthout those tools, the m won't really be repaired. Sort of a chicken or the egg argument. Does that help?

One would hope that in repairing the M that the story comes out. It should be one of the things that brings you closer together. It is like an old friend that did something to you in the past.. and you finally sit down and discuss it and put it behind you.

Agreed--although you will never see the stories identically. I accept that. We have different "lens" through which we see the world and we each have our own points of view. There has to be some common ground on the big stuff and some way of believing there won't be a repeat of the...crap.

But don't forget-- the LBSer usually played a part in the problems and to me, the biggest obstacle to a restored m in which the WAS would like to return, is

1) the LBSer won't let go of their pain and feeling of being wronged; no matter what the WAS does or says; or

2) the WAS does not believe the LBSer will let go of it.

The WAS fears, right or wrong, that the LBSer will throw it in their face during fights or hold it over their head like the sword of Damacles.


What trips people up is that most of the time people just can't let go of something. The "work" in front of you is mind-boggling. This is why being prepared is so important. Where you are.. what you are doing now.. is the easy part by far.

Yes it is. PIECING is when you both say you want to work things out and you start to look at what that is going to mean...

that's where the work that was so hard, was for ME. Hard as it was to get through the first stages of DBing,

what made Piecing so hard for me was the realization that after all the self improvement I had done, I was no longer the same woman I had been and h was a different man.

Took some time to decide IF h was the man I wanted in my life AND then

if he could do the repair work I needed...and as of now, I find that though he and I are in a good place, his r's with our older d is still damaged.

They are working on it and h is doing his best now. But his realization of how hurt she was, by him, was the hardest thing I have seen him experience short of his mother's death.

WE went to Retrovaille and I recommend it for anyone in Piecing, who has had enough time to know what they need to work on. We were in Piecing a year before we went to Retrovaille. Some couples need to attend sooner b/c they may do or say something too damaging at a fragile time in the m.

Bottom line is you both need tools you lacked before. Get them somewhere somehow.

[soccerwife]

I honestly do not know how it could be any worse than I felt the last two months - major depression. Now that I am getting control of the depression, I feel hopeful once again. How can piecing be harder than that? At least you now have S's cooperation.

Plus, what you describe as what was hard for you are things I feel like I have already overcome in DBing (I do know that he is still the man I want in my life even though we both have changed, and I have already completely forgiven him for everything he has done to me, that he has admitted to at least).

I am still skeptical of H's sudden want to go to MC but since I am planning for the worst, expecting nothing, and hoping for the best, I am going to look up this Retrovaille you speak of.

I know exactly what it is that I need to work on for myself and I have suggestions for H, so that is a start, right?

[25yearsmlc]

Forgiving my h was the biggest challenge for me in piecing. I knew I wanted to but had not seen it as a child and this was the first time I had been so deeply wronged for so long and in more than one way. Plus the kids were wounded.

You say you have "completely" forgiven your h and IF that is true so fast

I'd be impressed-- but mostly I'd be skeptical. You might be over simplifying forgiveness, which means letting go of the past. If you do that you won't be nearly so depressed as you are now.

IMO, You won't know you have forgiven him til you have been back together awhile-- and not tossed it i his face or held back from him or protectively acted or held it over his head, etc. That just takes work and time and grace. I had no role models.

also you both sound as if you are in major depressions so for me that means forgiveness hasn't fully occurred in either of you--and part of your work will also be to forgive yourself. Harder than it sounds.

The part of piecing and knowing if I wanted h back wasn't merely b/c of who I was or who he was

but my knowing whether h was going to bolt again or act unstable or if he'd be the rock he had always been for me, which I want and need. I didn't know if I trusted his new self being the old self...meaning had the MLCer in him really gone? That's not an easy question to answer b/c they don't see all their actions as having been "wrong" at all. They often feel they did what they "needed" to do and are sorry IF we got hurt...

h was better than that, eventually. I wasn't interested in half measures mainly b/c they do not work! Not punitive or vindictive or me making him pay at all. Just not going to do it half way...all or nothing once piecing is chosen. For ME/MY sitch.

Don't sell yourself short. Or assume you know what you will need a year from now.

Except you need tools for communicating and conflict resolution in a healthier way. You both do.

Retrovaille is like a workshop for married couples who are in crisis but it's not something where you each have to get up in front of people and share or "grieve" or disclose.

You'll hear from other couples who worked through things that will usually make your problems pale in comparison (like losing a child to drugs, then having an affair that results in an unplanned child, etc) and yet these couples are together- there - sharing with you, as success stories...you cannot help but be hopeful after hearing them.

You'll get tools for future discussions with your spouse and a follow up program I hope you'll make time for. There's a sliding scale fee that covers costs. Though it was started by the Catholic Church in Quebec, you do not have to be Catholic (my h isn't) and there was no church doctrine taught or even mentioned that I can think of. They don't preach but they do talk about a relationship w/ "God" , so if you are atheists you might be uncomfortable. There were couples there with only one partner wanting the m to work. They'll interview each spouse privately (on the phone) to make sure they know the scoop and that no 3rd parties are still involved. If your h says he'll go do not discuss it with him beyond bare facts til you get there.

As simple as it sounds and is, h and I were pleasantly surprised at how effective it was. We have been to other marriage retreats and personal growth workshops and this was among the best.

Hope this helps.

[25yearsmlc]

ps

you say it can't be harder b/c at least "you have spouses cooperation"...not necessarily.

sometimes The WAS who returns, wants to piece and get it over with. They want to resume the prior life as if no major upheaval just occurred for 3 years or however long it was.

You begin to doubt their sincerity and or

they think you are making it too hard and there are 2nd thoughts on both
ends for a long time. That is part of piecing.

it's not like you both woke up and said "I"m officially committed 100% NOW!"

not so clearly defined as that.

[MrBond]

I agree. Sometimes the WAS comes back expecting the LBS to prove to them that coming back is the right thing to do. Doesn't work that way. The R that succeed are the ones where the WAS puts in just as much if not more effort into R than the LBS.

[soccerwife]

"The R that succeed are the ones where the WAS puts in just as much if not more effort into R than the LBS."

That is a scary thought for me b/c I never see my H putting as much as, or more than me, into anything. And he has already challenged me to prove to him that R is the right thing to do.

He has something he says all the time, "I never have to admit I am wrong because I am never wrong." That is the mentality I am working with here.

I pretty much did wake up one morning and say to myself that I was committed 100%. I feel like I could pick up right where we left off a year ago. I think it is my H, WAS, that is going to have a hard time getting back there. If he does actually go through with filing for D though, or admit to A, then I will probably have a more difficult time, but I am a much more forgiving person than he is. You are both completely right though...I have no idea what I might want a year from now and I am likely to second guess myself and have doubts about H's sincerity.

I may also be oversimplifying forgiveness, hard to tell right now as you say, because I haven't had a chance to throw it back in his face. I do feel like complete forgiveness was a prerequisite to being willing to show him unconditional love even though he may not deserve it.

But I don't think that the depression is related to the pain he has caused to date but more related to the stress of the sitch and the fear of future pain, which may be unwarranted. I can see that clearly now that I have started the meds and can separate the past pain from the fear of the future. Other than him saying some hurtful stuff, and leaving for several weekends to "party" there haven't really been a whole lot of painful events that I can really be mad about.

I just went to Retrouvaille's website and although there isn't a ton of info on there, I am interested. As soon as I get confirmation (PMA) that H is willing to work on M, I will see what he thinks about it. My guess is, he won't want to do it.

[25yearsmlc]

sw,

You worry b/c you don't see signs he wants to work on things enough--
but he's not ready to do that so why would you expect to see ANY signs of it?

He's still a WAS or at least on the fence about it, right? I mean, did I miss something? Did he say he wants to reconcile and now you have doubts about it or what?

I thought you were just trying to get though this phase of accepting "whatever the heck is happening now", and trying to GAL yourself.

What's up?

I am concerned you are borrowing trouble from the future when you have enough on the plate for today. Make sense?

[soccerwife]

Yes, I was focused on the "what if" future there for a while. I just had questions about what to do in every case, no matter what he says to me, I want to have at least thought about my response. You know, be one step ahead of the game.

I am pretty much prepared in case of the best or the worst discussion ("I had an A", or "I decided I want this to work"). I still have to do some thinking about my response to "Your papers are served", which I am almost 100% certain he hasn't started yet.

Anyway, I thought about all that enough for the time being. I have given more thought to what you said about being honest with H about how I feel about him leaving for a "party" for the entire holiday weekend. I have also thought about how that relates to forgiveness.

I woke up at 4am feeling down with the urge to get a hug. Instead of doing so, I decided to exercise discipline and determine what emotion was really working through me. It was a little anger about the weekend and of course some hurt that he would rather spend it with someone else. So, instead of being angry with both him and myself (for not saying anything to stick up for myself) and letting the anger turn into resentment that I have to forgive at some point, I decided I should think of something to say that shows my disappointment by being funny/sarcastic, but not snotty.

"See you tomorrow." (pretending like I thought he was only staying one night like was originally what was agreed upon to which he will probably say he isn't coming back until Sunday evening).

then with a smile if I can pull it off, "Oh, I thought you were spending one night, if "partying" all weekend is what makes you happy, see you Sunday, have a great time dear."

I won't have to say any more than that to get my point across that I disapprove and that he should know what is important in life. It won't likely change his mind to come home when he should but it will plant a seed in his head that he is not acting in the best interest of his family and at some level, I know he will feel bad. He has said on numerous occasions lately that he doesn't want to be selfish and take too much time to himself (I think that is a positive sign that he wants to work on things). So, I will still have to forgive him for his actions, but I won't have to forgive myself for being dishonest with both him and myself.

As Laurie questions, "will this bring him closer or push him away?" I think this approach will bring him closer than me not saying a word to stick up for myself or the kids (for losing time with dad all weekend). H still gets to do exactly as he wants, I am not pursuing, and he can feel bad about it on his own time.

Wish me luck! I hope I can end the conversation and not let all the other emotions come out too. Discipline... and then I start feeling bad because I just went downstairs and he had moved the laundry from the washer to the dryer for me, something he has only done maybe 6 times EVER. It appears he may be trying.