H walked in handed me a iced latte and he's now outside washing his truck...
Anyway, I admit I snooped earlier, even though it's frowned up on DB because I wanted to know if he's seen a L. Also, an A is a dealbreaker for me so finding out WOULD change my course. I already have serious trust issues with H. An A would be my final boundary and I know that without a doubt. I would eventually forgive him for my sake and for the childrens, but I would not be in an R with him again. I know that about myself. I've been through too much with him already. Although, I have great respect for those who can do it so it's not a judgment on anyone's choices.
Back to the snooping - I found a poem he had written and it's disturbing me. He told me he stopped by and visited his childhood home recently, and that the new owners invited him in.
The poem is about his mother and that house. In it, he says that it's been more than 2 years (2 1/2 years) since her death and that he still cries everyday. He expresses that he believes he has to start over to grief. He makes reference to his parents divorce and how it hurt him so deeply because he never saw them fight (they separated 22 years ago when he was 19). How the best years of his life were spent in his childhood home and that family got the best of him. (This makes me sad for our kids as well because I'd like to think his best years were spent being a father to them). The poem was so full of love and longing (how he couldn't stop thinking about his mother and missing her everyday) and if I didn't read the words mother in it so many times, it would sound like he was talking about a lost lover. It made me feel very weird and uncomfortable to read it.
I have developed a close bond with my father over the past decade and I would be devastated by his death. But to believe I had to leave my M to grieve, or to express that I couldn't stop thinking obsessively about him everyday after 2 1/2 years? Well, I would feel that was very unhealthy. Maybe I'm being judgmental. I haven't lost a parent though so perhaps some who has could weigh in?
When H's mother was alive, I always felt their relationship was co-dependent. He was afraid to make her angry. He allowed her to manipulate him. He didn't stand up to her when she was hurtful towards me or our children. Even in counseling, both MC's we saw said he needed to have firmer boundaries with his mother but he was always hesitant to enforce them. In many ways, it was as if he never severed the bond from his childhood family or fully embraced his role as husband and father. This was something that always concerned me. It was part of the reason I found it hard to see him as a strong, independent man. I never felt he had forged a healthy adult relationship with his mother. It often seemed like she was more important to him than me, than our children, that she was more loved.
After reading the poem, I am beginning to believe that she was the great love of his life.
There is one thing that really sticks out to me in regards to your m. You BOTH feel unloved and emotionally disconnected.
Do you know what he does that makes you feel that way and vice versa?
Yes, I believe a lot of it stems from his unhealthy dynamic with his family. A lot of this came to the surface today when I read the poem I mentioned above. It's always been there between us and I have shared my issues with friends and family (my parents specifically) over the lack of boundaries with his mother. My own mother was so upset over the way I was treated by his family at times, that she threatened to call his mother and have a talk with her. (Of course, I talked her out of it.)
Even our MC validated my feelings and shared her own MIL issues. Her MIL was angry with her her because she had decided to go back to school to get a Ph.D so she helped me to understand that their often strange issues with me were not really about me. For instance, I was bad-mouthed for being a SAHM for a number of years (and called a gold-digger - hilarious considering my H made so little at the time of my pregnancy) and for getting pregnant before we were married. It was even suggested (by his sister) that I planned my first pregnancy to trap H. This was of course, not true. This same sister was a SAHM for quite awhile and she also got pregnant before marriage, a mere 6 months into the relationship, yet H and I were together for 4 years before my pregnancy, but I was the one who trapped my man. There was always a very distinct double standard at play.
Our MC suggested the women in his family were immature and that jealousy played a role. She said I had to look at the facts -- that I am more educated than all of his family members, that I am considered attractive, that I am fit, that I am well-dressed, yet when they speak of me, they make me out to look like trash because of their own "stuff". My insecurities did not allow me to see these obvious differences and even after counseling, I couldn't fully accept this... I always thought it was my fault. That I was unlikable.
Anyway, there are far too many incidents to go into here but suffice it to say, the family issues and constant incidents weighed heavily on our R. But instead of dealing with it all effectively, I either got very angry and avoided them, or I joined him in coddling his family, specifically his mother. I made it my mission to get his mother and sister to like me, even though it caused me a lot of emotional distress. I eventually gave up on his sister but his mother was very loving towards me at times and we eventually developed a fairly good friendship. However, I never fully trusted her because she would turn on me at the drop of a hat. She was one of those people who was very nice to your face but would cut you down behind your back. Yet, my H worshiped her and put her on a pedestal. It was as if she could do no wrong, even when she was very wrong. He would often call me judgmental, yet ignore his own mother's harsh judgments. This hurt me very deeply and I often felt betrayed.
Originally Posted By: Valeska19
Anytime my w mentioned something, I truly looked into it. If it was her demon, I did my best to reassure her. If it was my own, I confronted it.
Val, this is good advice and I am trying very hard to take it. But I'm struggling with what is his truth, what is my truth and with what is reality. Because maybe somewhere in the midst lies the answers.
Originally Posted By: Valeska19
It's easy to love someone in the good times, it becomes much more difficult when they hurt us or when we have to look in the mirror to see how we hurt them.
So my question to you is.. what are you going to do to address this issue?
I'm trying to understand how I contributed to our M problems with my anger and my insecurities. How I rejected him before he could reject me so many times (or his perceived rejection of me because he claims he was reaching out and I didn't notice). And how in so many ways (busyness, kids, concentrating all my energy into my career), I distanced myself from him so that I didn't have to feel the pain of our disconnection.
I'm also going to listen more. I'm going to validate more. I'm going to stop sharing my anger with him. And I'm going to stop talking so much and trying to be his therapist. He thinks I'm more intuitive, more self-aware and more able to break down our issues, whereas he can't process his thoughts as quickly or as concisely. Perhaps, I only contribute to his confusion by participating in the discussions about his confusion. I'm not sure anymore...
Originally Posted By: Valeska19
Are you willing to spend the time to look? Not just into YOUR feelings, but HIS as well?
Yes, I am, Val. In the past, I was too angry and too hurt to try but now I'm ready.
Originally Posted By: Valeska19
Are you able to own up to your part and allow him to own up to his part?
Yes, I believe I am working towards this. I can see how I made him feel ashamed and guilty. And unsupported. How I used my hurt to justify rejecting him and how that was wrong. I did it out of fear and isolation, but I see now that I was setting myself up for more rejection.
Anyway, thanks for your post, Val. You've given me lots to think about and I will ponder it all more today, I'm sure. A recent post of yours inspired me and I have been trying to catch up on your sitch lately. (There are simply so many to read so it often takes me quite awhile to feel I'm knowledgeable enough to comment). But we have something in common that I have not mentioned on the board and it drew me to your sitch, but that's all I will say about that. Thanks again.
Btw, do you mind if I ask what I posted that struck a nerve? If not, no worries.
Wow, E. It sounds like your H's issues with his mom and her passing away run much deeper than you realized. Hopefully that will give you a better understanding on how to move forward. In looking at your responses to Val's questions, it sounds to me like you have a good game plan.
It sounds like your H's issues with his mom and her passing away run much deeper than you realized.
Did I mention that bomb #1 was on what would have been his mother's birthday? I suppose I should have been a little more aware of what he was going through but I thought perhaps he had accepted her death because we knew she was terminal for years.
Originally Posted By: jbnati
Hopefully that will give you a better understanding on how to move forward. In looking at your responses to Val's questions, it sounds to me like you have a good game plan.
Not really. I'm still all over the place. My clarity rarely lasts.
Yesterday, for the most part, I was doing well. Feeling less anxiety. Then H texted me again:
H:I know it seems like way overly dramatic and over the top. I am just really trying to do an honest assessment of our marriage, its state, my contribution, you, the whole thing. I don't know where you head has been the last couple of days but that's where mine has been.
H:No response or better to talk in person. It's just that (D16) has been around.
M:Yes, I'm doing the same but don't think it's entirely possible without therapy.
HE DIDN'T RESPOND AND I GOT ANGRY. And I said something stupid because I let my anger take over, even though I know it's annoying to play amateur therapist AND I see that's it's annoying because I see other people posting on the board about how they tell their spouse what their "issues" are instead of working on their own. And I think to myself, no wonder their spouse is running away. BUT did that stop me? No.
Instead of shutting my mouth, I texted...
M:Honestly, your co-dependent relationship with your mother greatly affected our bond. It often felt like you never fully severed yourself in a healthy way from her in your adulthood. It make it hard for me to see you as a strong independent man.
H:Not exactly sure of the co-dependent definition but I acknowledge your observation. At any rate, probably didn't detach enough from my family for my new family.
I didn't respond.
Yes, this is why I'm here because I can't keep my big mouth shut. Yes, our MC told him this many years ago but did I have to point it out again? No. It's annoying. I know it's annoying, yet I can't stop myself from being right.
Anyway, last night while I was cuddling S7 before bed, he asked me if I was sick because he said I've seemed sick for the last couple days and he's worried. He said when he gets home from school today, he wants us to spend time together and then he's going to give me lots of cuddles so I feel better. He's such a sweet kid and I don't want him to be affected by this sitch, but he's obviously noticing that something is not right. I've tried so hard to keep my emotions in check but this situation is just wearing me down.
There are a lot of things that I could say about your H at this point. However, even if what I say is accurate, I am getting the feeling from you that maybe you have reached the point where understanding more about him is no longer comforting to you (?) Because eventually you realize that knowing doesn't change anything. Because, ultimately, the only thing that really matters is that HE understands his issues, and even that doesn't matter unless he DOES something about it.
However, I will say that it sounds like H has abandonment issues. Mom, with whom he was overly-enmeshed "abandoned" him. It doesn't matter that she died, or that it wasn't of her choosing...emotions don't know enough to tell the difference. He relied on her for a lot of his emotional well-being. And he relies on YOU for a lot of his emotional well-being. She left him, and he had no control, no power over that happening. I think he is afraid you will leave him. And, whether he realizes it or not, I think when he is most afraid of that (when he gets your "list" and argues, when there is conflict between you, etc.), he "bombs." At least if he pushes you away, he was not without power over the situation. People will sometimes embrace what they dread better if they make it happen themselves, because having control makes it less threatening. People are stupid, that way. It is a childish, ridiculous game to play. But if I've learned anything, it is that emotions never grow up. A person has to learn to think when emotions are in play, and if you haven't learned that by the time you are an adult, it is not easy to pick up.
You know, that brings up something that has been occurring to me over and over again as I read your posts. When you describe both your H and your D, I get the strong feeling that I am reading about people who are very intellectually developed, but have never really integrated their emotions. That is to say, people who are so adept at reason and logic, that when strong emotions occur, they don't know where they fit into the "equation," and may not know how to handle them or what to do with them. Having Asperger's (and a S who also has) I am a virtual expert on that dynamic . I am usually either unaware of my emotions, or so overpowered by them that I can't function. Integrating them is a HUGE part of my current therapy. In fact, early on in therapy, I had to bring W in for a session, because in many instances she literally can express what my feelings are better than I can. And her presence helped clarify some things, because I am not good at reading her feelings. Not that your family has Asperger's as well (or they might, who knows), but I wonder if that pattern is being played out there. And, if it is, how would that affect your position?
OK, so I ended up saying a lot about your H anyway.
Quote:
Yes, this is why I'm here because I can't keep my big mouth shut.
Yeah, you opened up your mouth and said something obnoxious. You are entitled. God knows, he has done it often enough!
But look at the whole thing from the other side. You said something you figured would be offensive and obnoxious to him. What strikes me as interesting was the fact that he didn't explode. He didn't turn it into an opportunity to drop the bomb. I wouldn't take it as proof positive that he has changed - like any other change a person makes, it will be filled with backslides and moments of hope - but could it be a sign that he is actually putting some of his good intentions into action? A moment when you could actually see his effort? Maybe not something you want to think about now. I know it is exhausting to keep hope when it is so often contradicted by inconsistent actions from your H.
I have hope for your M. But I also hear what you are saying. You have gone through so much, and, honestly, even with your H's sincere commitment to change, it would take time and it sounds like his instability is far from over. I don't want to you lose the good that you can be to each other, but you need to keep your own mental health intact.
I guess all I wanted to say was that as far as I can tell you are a good person, and we are all here to support you, no matter what [[[[[[[]]]]]]]!
Think about it...if you met a potential mate who was nothing but a bundle of needs, would YOU be attracted to them?
H: Not exactly sure of the co-dependent definition but I acknowledge your observation. At any rate, probably didn't detach enough from my family for my new family.
Was he DB'ing you?
Originally Posted By: Psych77
What strikes me as interesting was the fact that he didn't explode. He didn't turn it into an opportunity to drop the bomb.
Yes, this jumped out at me, too. This was kind of a 180 for him, it sounds like.
We ALL backslide anyway. It's hard to keep the pent-up frustration under control 100% of the time anyway.
I am getting the feeling from you that maybe you have reached the point where understanding more about him is no longer comforting to you (?) Because eventually you realize that knowing doesn't change anything. Because, ultimately, the only thing that really matters is that HE understands his issues, and even that doesn't matter unless he DOES something about it.
Yes, and I am also beginning to realize that this crisis had to happen in order for us to grow. However, I am still trying to understand what role I played because I'm not entirely sure what my 180's need to be...
I'm slowly making sense of them though, as I ponder both my contributions and H's, to the demise of our H. In looking at H's issues, I believe I am developing more clarity on mine. (Actually, I believe I reached a new level of clarity last night, which I will post more about later).
Originally Posted By: Psych77
I will say that it sounds like H has abandonment issues. Mom, with whom he was overly-enmeshed "abandoned" him. It doesn't matter that she died, or that it wasn't of her choosing...emotions don't know enough to tell the difference. He relied on her for a lot of his emotional well-being. And he relies on YOU for a lot of his emotional well-being. She left him, and he had no control, no power over that happening. I think he is afraid you will leave him. And, whether he realizes it or not, I think when he is most afraid of that (when he gets your "list" and argues, when there is conflict between you, etc.), he "bombs." At least if he pushes you away, he was not without power over the situation. People will sometimes embrace what they dread better if they make it happen themselves, because having control makes it less threatening. People are stupid, that way. It is a childish, ridiculous game to play. But if I've learned anything, it is that emotions never grow up. A person has to learn to think when emotions are in play, and if you haven't learned that by the time you are an adult, it is not easy to pick up.
I think you may be onto something here, Psych. I always believed I was the one with abandonment issues but H and has said more than once during all this, that he thinks I will eventually leave him someday anyway. And that as I continue to become more self-assured and confident, that I will eventually realize that I can do better than him. He has also said that he feels sometimes that he will never make me happy. (I can see more clearly now how I triggered his guilt and shame).
When I first heard him express those feelings, I guess I thought he was simply trying to put the blame on me in order to relieve some of his own guilt over leaving (or at least attempting to leave). However, maybe just maybe, there is some truth in those statements. I'm not sure yet.
Originally Posted By: Psych77
You know, that brings up something that has been occurring to me over and over again as I read your posts. When you describe both your H and your D, I get the strong feeling that I am reading about people who are very intellectually developed, but have never really integrated their emotions. That is to say, people who are so adept at reason and logic, that when strong emotions occur, they don't know where they fit into the "equation," and may not know how to handle them or what to do with them.
This is an interesting observation. I have noticed that both my H and my D do become very overwhelmed by strong emotions. And both of them resort to isolation and addictions to soothe themselves - D16 with food - H with alcohol. It's interesting but again, I don't exactly know what to do with this information except try to be understanding.
H seems to want either a quick fix for issues or an obvious solution in order for him to feel at peace. It's as if he can't handle a situation when things are complicated and needs to escape. He's gone to two IC sessions, and all this has done is to convince him to bomb me again. Ironically, many times throughout or R, he has accused me of being negative and has said that he's more positive BUT I think the real truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'm not as negative as he believes and he's not as positive as he believes. I'm more likely to search for a solution to a problem, whereas H is more likely to wash his hands of it, or leave it up to me to solve. Looking back over our R, I can see how this dynamic was at play when it came to other situations involving our in-laws, or our kids, etc.
Originally Posted By: Psych77
Having Asperger's (and a S who also has) I am a virtual expert on that dynamic . I am usually either unaware of my emotions, or so overpowered by them that I can't function. Integrating them is a HUGE part of my current therapy.
In fact, early on in therapy, I had to bring W in for a session, because in many instances she literally can express what my feelings are better than I can. And her presence helped clarify some things, because I am not good at reading her feelings.
I do think H relies on me to make sense of his emotions, to some degree. For instance, it's strange he will bomb me, and then probe me further for information on my feelings, and ask for reassurance that he is loved. Then he needs to go off and think, and read, and ponder.
I'm not sure however, if I simply confuse him more because he believes I'm more adept at understanding our issues or emotions. Therefore, he's convinced that maybe his feelings are wrong and mine are right. Or if he's really DONE and he's looking to me to confirm this for him because he's relied on me in this manner in the past. I'm not sure.
Originally Posted By: Psych77
Not that your family has Asperger's as well (or they might, who knows), but I wonder if that pattern is being played out there. And, if it is, how would that affect your position?
Well, actually funny you should mention that as I have been reading about Asperger's because the thought did occur to me as I was reading about your experiences. It's definitely something I have considered.
All in all, I'm still not sure how any of these revelations should affect my position. Should I continue to help H make sense of his conflicting emotions because I have taken that role in the past, or am I stopping him from working out his own issues and enabling him to remain in a state of confusion?
Perhaps, he is trying to separate himself from me because deep down he knows he needs to do this in order to grow as a person? Can he do this within a marriage? Yes. But he is in cognitive dissonance and his frame of reference is escape and withdrawal.
Originally Posted By: Psych77
But look at the whole thing from the other side. You said something you figured would be offensive and obnoxious to him. What strikes me as interesting was the fact that he didn't explode. He didn't turn it into an opportunity to drop the bomb. I wouldn't take it as proof positive that he has changed - like any other change a person makes, it will be filled with backslides and moments of hope - but could it be a sign that he is actually putting some of his good intentions into action? A moment when you could actually see his effort? Maybe not something you want to think about now. I know it is exhausting to keep hope when it is so often contradicted by inconsistent actions from your H.
Knowing my H, I interpret his response as a warning to back off - that he doesn't want to discuss this issue further. Yes, he validated my point of view but he often does that when he wants to withdraw but I never get the sense that he really "gets" or cares about my opinion when he uses language like that. It's almost like he's placating me. Something he does often when he's not raging. He uses two tactics in fights but neither come from a place of true understanding or conflict resolution. Does that make sense?
Also, his R related texts have stopped since I made that comment so I think he's angry and stewing about it. He's withdrawing again because I said something that he didn't want to hear, or truly acknowledge.
Originally Posted By: Psych77
I have hope for your M. But I also hear what you are saying. You have gone through so much, and, honestly, even with your H's sincere commitment to change, it would take time and it sounds like his instability is far from over. I don't want to you lose the good that you can be to each other, but you need to keep your own mental health intact.
I'm not sure I have a lot of hope at this point, Psych. My H is a very conflicted man. I'm not sure if his confusion is due to pain because he wants to stay and he doesn't know how he can because he can't make sense of our issues or his feelings. Or if he's conflicted because he feels guilty for wanting to abandon me which trickles down to the children. I'm not sure.
I think he might believe that the only way to his happiness is to escape the pain of our M but then his guilt over sacrificing his children's happiness and mine gets in his way. He's expressed both. One minute, he's saying that he would like our M to work, for us to be happy together but he doesn't believe that's possible. Then he asks for my list of issues and claims they are not insurmountable. But then says in the next breath that we are not compatible, we've grown apart, too much hurt has occurred and he doesn't see us growing old together. Or he doesn't want to grow old with me.
I'm not sure who is the real H.
He did text me a few days ago (I think I posted it) and expressed that he doesn't want to say anything stupid. So clearly something he's saying to me, he considers stupid. I'm not sure which statements he's referring to, or which side of the equation those statements fall on.
Yesterday, my anxiety was worse then it's every been during this whole stich. It was puzzling me since clearly I'm choosing to distance myself more than H at this time. Maybe it was the pain of attempting to detach...
Anyway, later H texted me to let me know that his friend was having a BBQ and that I was invited, but of course he understood if I did not feel comfortable.
I wasn't sure if he was simply being polite and wanting to keep up appearances for now by inviting me, but since my anxiety was off the charts, I responded by saying that I wouldn't feel comfortable attending right now, but thank-you for the invite, and for understanding.
Later, when S7 and I were cuddling before bed, he asked me if daddy and I had broken up while we were dating. The question caught me completely off guard but I replied that we had. Then S7 said, "But then you got married?" I said, "Yes, we did".
S7: "Are you and Daddy going to get a divorce? Because I don't want you to, Mommy."
Again, I was caught off guard. I asked him what made him ask that (honestly, the first thought was that he overheard H say something at the BBQ) but S7 said that it was because we fight sometimes and it scares him. I'm assuming S7 has overheard raised voices coming from our room in the past but this has not happened for months. It broke my heart to hear this and I felt like crying but I gave him a big hug. He was laying in my arms but turned his head and started staring into my eyes. After looking at me intently for almost a minute he said, "I love you so much, Mommy. Do you know that?"
Obviously, I've been a fool to think that S7 wasn't going to notice that something has been off between H and I lately.
After, I put S7 to bed, I turned in early to read. (I'm sleeping in the guest room while H is in our bedroom.) A few posts on this site about Passionate Marriage have intrigued me so I began the book.
I was a weeping mess by Chapter 2 - differentiation, emotional fusion and the fact that the couple described in Chapter 2 shared so much in common with H and I right down to similar in-law issues and personality styles - it was a moment of clarity that I haven't had since this whole thing began. I've learned something from each of the books I've read lately and have been slowly but surely trying to integrate all the concepts into a new frame of reference. But this book's first two chapters resulted in the biggest light bulb, aha! moment I've had since this whole thing began. Everything just made so much more sense. I could feel my anxiety dissipating noticeably. I stopped crying. And I slept.
Today, I'm not sure if what I learned will save us... now that we're so far gone.
But it was something.
H tried to talk to me today again and I was uncomfortable but I engaged him. I have no idea where his head is at or which way he is leaning today but I felt so much more at peace. I asked him if he still wanted me to drive him to his appointment tomorrow (medical test requiring sedation) and he said it was okay. He would be fine. Yes, it stung that he doesn't want me to be there anymore and it's not exactly a good sign, but I didn't argue or act hurt.
Then we started talking about S7's upcoming birthday and H is very eager to hold it this weekend so again, I wonder if he wants it over with because he is planning on moving out soon. He probably fears that if he announces that he's out, we won't be able to celebrate without even more tension and he's afraid I will tell my parents. This is all very possible but instead of fishing for answers, or outright accusing, I said I would start making some calls today. And I did.
H: Not exactly sure of the co-dependent definition but I acknowledge your observation. At any rate, probably didn't detach enough from my family for my new family.
Was he DB'ing you?
A WAS DB'ing? Now that would be a paradox to behold.
I hear ya though, jb. And thanks for the support. You're the best. ((()))
((()))
I'm still all over the place. My clarity rarely lasts.
