Do what I can but still have questions 4

[soccerwife]

Went out to lunch and my fortune cookie said, "We don't know who we are until we see what we can do."

My talk with H didn't go exactly as I planned this morning. I wasn't able to smile or be happy for him going away the entire weekend, instead it came across as a guilt trip. Not at all what I wanted. Another mistake, another learning experience. It is way too early in this for me to be able to tell him when I am upset with something he is doing. I should have tabled that issue until I get his cooperation to work on things.

I did manage to make it away without pursuing an "I love you", asking him any specifics about the weekend, or loosing control of my emotions. So I was at least partially successful. Looking back on it, I kind of regret not sticking with my initial gut reaction to not say anything, but it obviously could have been much worse. At least now he knows what I am really feeling about him going away for the entire weekend.

I will just have to be extra happy and welcoming when he gets home. I will do as 25 suggested and have a great weekend w/ the kids and have them ready to greet dad when he gets home with stories and his favorite dinner. I won't even have to prep them, I am sure they are going to want his attention as soon as he walks through the door.

[soccerwife]

Finished a couple more Phases and CD's of Mort Fertel's Marriage Fitness program and now I see that many of the long-term DBers have also went through that program. So many of the phrases/advice/pieces of wisdom that were given to me on my threads came from that program..."go into it with no expectations", "make the changes for yourself, not to save your M", "the only thing you can control is you", etc.

Some key differences that I have noticed so far:
1. DBing is really for the LBSer, someone who is trying to get back an uncooperative spouse and the information is much more specific along those lines. Whereas Marriage Fitness works best for those who have the cooperation of thier spouse. Although marriage Fitness does have the lone Ranger Track, it just isn't as specific or offer as much support (especially individualized support).
2. Mort Fertel is strongly opposed to seeking ANY outside help. He believes that a couple should NEVER talk to friends or family about M issues because he says it violates the privacy of M. He goes further to say that a couple should NOT go to MC until they have a good R. He says that the only outlet for frustrations in your M is your spouse, IC with a professional, or through journalling on your own.

DB, on the other hand, is very pro-community as is demonstrated by this forum. If I didn't have some way to get out my frustrations by getting feedback from people, where would I be? Probably still depressed or worse! And if I hadn't confided in the right family member or friend at the right moment during the evolution of all of this, I would not have been able to do all of the self discovery.

I started this entire journey by first reading, "Save My Marriage" by William Doherty. It is a wonderful book and talks about how he believes M's should be more community supported. Maybe that is why I disagree with Fertel that you should NEVER seek advice from family and friends, but my experience is that they want to save my M just as much as I do, just because they love me and can see how much I want it.

3. Lastly, Fertel's program so far is not about action-oriented goal setting. I have not found a single exercise useful yet. Maybe that is because I figured out all of that stuff on my own months ago, even before I started to DB. But I can see it being useful to a couple who just realized they have a problem but has done no self-exploring yet. I am not saying I haven't learned anything from him, I have learned a couple little things already, but so far, DBing has been more help to my sitch.

[soccerwife]

So even after my little bit of a mess up this morning, I must have done enough things right. H just called me out of the blue (he NEVER calls me during the day) to ask me about S13, who had a doctor's appt this afternoon.

Sometimes I wonder if our M is like tug-of-war. We just keep pulling in our own directions and no one wins. The key to winning is loosening your pull slightly and throwing the other person off balance and then yanking really hard to pull the rope in your direction. That is what happens every time I DB for a while, then I let him have it how I really feel in an arguement and he ends up doing what I want. Isn't that strange?

The call went perfectly. I was pleasant and happy, didn't pursue, and exited the conversation first. All 180's for me. I guarantee he is wondering what the h___ is going on. I could almost laugh about it.

[25yearsmlc]

Sw

I admire how much you are trying and reading. Good for you! I caution you a bit about reading conflicting info and approaches b/c it can undermine any and all the approaches if you never give one of them a genuine complete effort. make sense? I don't agree with Fertel and wondered (I began his book in the store and left it there) if he assumes talking to community about a marriage is some hens bitching about their h's and getting riled up. To say "never" do it is too rigid and black/white for me. Also counterintuitive. We invited people to our wedding and asked anyone to object if they had reservations and essentially marriage IS a community event and a societal concern.

Not getting IC for you when your spouse is checking out of the m seems crazy but, to each his own.

Just decide if DBing is what you want to do and if it is, do THAT and try the other stuff if and when you are sure DBing has not worked...that's my .02 there.

So even after my little bit of a mess up this morning, I must have done enough things right. H just called me out of the blue (he NEVER calls me during the day) to ask me about S13, who had a doctor's appt this afternoon.

Baby steps count...good.

Sometimes I wonder if our M is like tug-of-war. We just keep pulling in our own directions and no one wins. The key to winning is loosening your pull slightly and throwing the other person off balance and then yanking really hard to pull the rope in your direction.

God, I hope that's not what works. I don't want any "winners" in my m if it means someone has to "lose". And that's what you are implying. Has your h ever said he feels manipulated by you?


That is what happens every time I DB for a while, then I let him have it how I really feel in an arguement and he ends up doing what I want. Isn't that strange?

Yes it is strange and It's not DBing. Getting him to do what you want isn't the goal. Restoring the marriage is. Do you see the difference?
What does it meant to "yank really hard" or "throw them off balance"? Does it mean to do a 180 and get them wondering? That part I get. But I don't get the yank really hard or the "get them to do what you want" part. At least not the DB way. Did you finish reading the Divorce Remedy book?

RE the present issue--over all, the issue is he wants you to justify his return to the marriage, correct? And yet he's also partying with his peeps, we hope there's no OW and in a nutshell, he's not doing any of the "work" but wants you to convince him to stay? And you both are struggling with depression? Is that more or less it? I just need to make sure I got that straight.

RE the short term goal of expressing yourself authentically when he asks for something you don't want to give (the real goal here is you guys honestly communicating without making the other one "wrong", Not just getting him to stay home. If you use guilt to manipulate it will backfire.

No marriages last and are happy, with guilt as the motivator. It leads to resentment and passive aggressive behavior and that's IF they stick around...they rarely do. So...let's look at another way of handling this type of request.


You want him to stay home this weekend, instead of partying with his friends for 3 days and then returning in a nasty mood to boot.

Instead of owning that--which wasn't unreasonable, btw- you chose first to deny it, then inwardly resent it, then try to guilt him into staying, and it backfired. Pretty much bad choices from start to finish...do you see how it would have been better the first chance to say the truth, calmly and leave out the judgement?

Instead of saying that his going means he's selfish, doesn't care about the family, or prefers the company of others (which we all do now and then)

you just say how YOU FEEL...e.g.,

"Thanks for asking b/c actually yes I do mind you leaving to party for the whole weekend and leaving me with the kids the whole time.
*This is a holiday weekend and I wanted to have a break myself (if true, admit that, if not, leave it out) for some part of it, AND
* the kids wanted to do 'x' and 'y' so it's not fair to them to cancel that,
but it's much harder on me to do it without you there too, AND
*I don't want to be alone each night of the weekend b/c I wanted to be intimate with you some or all of those nights.
* And truth be told, it hurts my feelings a little that you want to leave again, and I'm a tad envious (if true) that I don't get to go do that myself --very often/ever/with you."

See Soccer, by telling him how you feel without making him "wrong" for asking, is not something he can really get angry about. You just told how you felt. And what you said was all true (only say the parts that are authentic for you obviously) and it was not judgemental...you didn't make him "wrong" for asking. If he still chooses to go, at least you know you were honest and he cannot claim you "said it was fine but now you are angry. This is your fault!"

Just a suggestion.


The call went perfectly. I was pleasant and happy, didn't pursue, and exited the conversation first. All 180's for me. I guarantee he is wondering what the h___ is going on. I could almost laugh about it.

is he still going? Assuming he is, that doesn't mean you didn't do some good 180s. It's good you see that.

I hope you'll consider the less manipulative and more honest approach to answering questions/requests that you have to, when you think it'll be tough.

Women tend to do this more than men but both do it. We say yes when we mean 'no" and it's easy to say we are trying to please or to be loving and kind. But that kindness loving argument ONLY works when we don't resent them for taking us up on our answers, and even then, I prefer honesty.

My h asked me if he could go on a big hunting trip the same weekend of my high school reunion (which he forgotten the date of, & which I planned to attend on my own, across the country). I would prefer he not go, truth be told. But it's important to him to go and he doesn't ask often. So I told him that's my HS reunion weekend but since it's also his one chance to go with that guide & it matters so much to him,

I'd say yes and I'd get childcare...but yes I told him about my previously made plans he had forgotten about. (I didn't cover it up to avoid HIS discomfort and then seethe).

I told him what I was doing to make his plan and my trip both happen. Not to brag about my "heroic sacrifice" but to be honest and to show him love.

He offered to make the arrangements for our youngest but I chose to handle it b/c I know the better sitters. Point is, I said "yes" b/c I love him and he feels loved when he knows that I'm doing something for him b/c of that. A "win win" so to speak.

Make sense?

Were you afraid that if you told him you did mind (but assume you didn't add in the part about his screwed up priorities, etc) but that he could go if it was that important to him, that he'd get angry and go anyhow?

Can you imagine a scenario in which HE

1) chose not to go but was not miserable at home this weekend, (fuming with resentment), OR

2) chose to go but felt good about your answer; OR

3) chose to go but wished he'd stayed home b/c you and kids were more fun/loving...

MAYBE--Try figuring out what an answer that achieves one of these would look like.

Soccerwife you can feel good about your progress even with some mistakes along the way. No one gets all this right, let alone fast. And the WAS has their own delayed reaction to our changes too...

Good luck, keep reading (but choose ONE approach at a time!!)

[soccerwife]

I am not trying Fertel's approach as a whole, just going through for additional advice that applies to DBing. I have to get H on board before I bother with Fertel's program for real.

I knew you were going to think I was manipulating H. That was not my intention. It was totally and accidental guilt trip. I meant to smile and be sarcastic like you suggested but just couldn't pull it off when the time came. i am not going to attempt anything like that again until he actually says he wants to work on M. He is just not ready for honest communication. I am giving him the space and freedom he thinks he wants.

Just touching on the rope again... every time I DB for a while (throwing him off balance) and then he stops distancing a little, I go ahead and give him some honesty (yank the rope hard while he is still off balance) and he ends up giving some sign that he wants to work on M (he falls and I "win" the tug-of-war). I don't really mean that I win (just in the tug-of-war analogy).

Our sitch in a nutshell: He is miserable but claims I am perfect and there is nothing I could change that would make him feel differently. At the moment, I believe him that there is no OW. He asked me to mutually agree to D and after much thought and a session with Laurie, I decided that was against my most deeply held beliefs. I told him I will not agree to or aid in D but I understand he wants out. I also told him I intend to be his wife as I promised and help him figure out what will actually make him happy (because he admits that D may not make him happy either). So, yes, we are both in depressions... me because of the stress and him because of multiple life crisis that hit in the last 2 yrs. After our last major argument a week and a half ago when I told him I will not agree to D, he sent me a txt the next day that he would go to MC with me if I wanted. I put the ball back in his court and told him to make the appt if he liked, so I really don't know if he is willing to work on M or not. And the time is NOT right to ask.

All of the things you suggested me saying to him about this weekend "party", he would consider pursuing at this point and that is why I first chose to just say, "No, I don't mind". He has made it VERY clear to me that he does NOT want to spend time with me and does NOT enjoy my company. He will not be persuaded to stay home because I wanted to spend time with him. That would repulse him. And in truth, I didn't have any plans for the weekend but I just don't appreciate not being allowed to make any.

Of the three senarios you laid out, I can't see him doing any of those. He went even though I and the kids wanted him home and he probably won't feel too bad about it and he will come home in a terrible mood because he doesn't want to be here. But he IS going to get a loving re-entry.

[soccerwife]

Day three of the holiday weekend w/o H and still no contact. No idea what time he may be home. I will try to make a nice dinner and be happy to see him, although at this point I will really have to dig down deep to find that happiness to see him. It is covered by anger and fear right now.

[any chance?]

SW:
Hang in there. You are fuming because you are assuming H wants nothing to do with you and your family. Seismic might be right (her option 3). You don't know what is going through his mind. In my sitch, I spend way too much time trying to read between the lines and read W mind. The WAS cannot be read. But I always forget that. The scenarios we paint in our minds are not necessarily the way things go. Be strong.

[dbmod]

Soccer-

You just got priceless advice from 25yrsmlc about how to have these conversations with your husband. It's the DB equivalent of ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT.

[soccerwife]

My H considers asking for what I want to be pursuit. He would say, "you already know how I feel."

So, I messed up again last night. Not as badly as I have before, but I still could have done things differently.

I tried to start a nice conversation asking him if he had a fun weekend. He responded with, "more fun than I would have had here." I said, "life isn't about you having fun at all times" and he said "it should be". And then I lost it. I followed with, "Yes you would have had fun here because we did xyz family activity while you were gone and D5 learned to ride a bike, etc". then I questioned if his new "friends" knew that he has children that he abanoded for the weekend and if they would respect him if they knew, to which he had no response. I told him he was being incredibly selfish and then he said that I am selfish as well. I knew where this was headed, (I am selfish because I won't agree to D), so I exited the conversation and spent the remainder of the evening in my room.

So, he didn't get the happy re-entrance that I promised I would give. I messed up yet again. I was just so angry yesterday. On top of that, I am having a few really down days, despite the meds. I am feeling hopeless, overwhelmed, confused, anxious, and alone.

[25yearsmlc]

Soccer,


yi yi yi....(SIGH)

yeah well, you know what I think you could have said, Even if just saying "of course I mind." And walking away.

But you are not fighting the divorce. If he wants the divorce, he can get it. Who's stopping him? Not you.

Be clear about that.

And be upbeat as best you can, and applaud loudly for the 1% of positives he gives you.

That's hard. Like Mother Teresa hard... but it seems to help.

Good luck, and keep working on the depression. You have children to think of.

As for his reaction to having "no fun here" I'd have acted shocked.'

"H, that's a hurtful thing to say. We had a ball and you missed out. D rode her bike for the first time. If that doesn't matter to you at all, then maybe it's best you were gone."

And leave the room. Make it clear you are NOT interested in his feedback at times like this. Let him stew on something and have no response from you that you will regret.

If he says you are "selfish to fight" the divorce, since you are not stopping him, it's an odd thing to say.

Plus, since when is it selfish to try and help your family stay together? He's clearnly not in a position to judge who or what is selfish if he sees no distinction between your response and his.

(Can't wait til his new peeps discover he's got a wife and kids at home...while he's partying. Sooo not attractive to OWs of any age or decency).

But still Soccer, his belief that being at home is miserable is telling. Not necessarily accurate, but revealing.

You must get a grip on the depression. If it permeates the home, no one wants to be in that.

I fear that around him, you are this way. Plus you had previous episodes of this depression so, you have to manage it more.

You have children...so don't you want to anyhow?

Good luck