Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[25yearsmlc]

25, I'm one of your biggest fans, but I do want to comment on a portion of your post:

"Past sex abuse? It's over used as an excuse for present day problems. I mean get help and fix this if so. It's crucial and unique to a marriage.

I don't really buy the past abuse excuse or she'd be pushing it more, so much as past baggage about sex in general, and present day lack of interest. Tell her to talk to a priest or pastor..."

I know that you are an extremely compassionate person in all other areas of the board, so I wondered whether you had much experience with the effects of sexual abuse?

sorry to say I have had direct and indirect experience with it. As a survivor of it, I worked it out. I got help. It doesn't ruin my present day life anymore as I faced it in my 20s and was not going to punish my h or myself, for the evil of another man.

Also I defended child molesters (not by choice) in the Army as a L. What impressed me most was the (uh oh, here it comes-the
"Resilience- of children.) But They DO get past this unless we keep harping and harping on their suffering and make it a focal point..and I say that from my own experience as well.

So for SSm wife to say it, now and then doesn't ring true for me. I wonder if it's one of those "recovered" memories or what? The fact that she doesn't make a big deal about it until if and only when he presses strikes me but worse, is she won't get help for it. So where does that leave HIM? And why is it ok for her to let that ruin his sex life or hers?

Based on how little he says she says, I don't think it's that. I just think she's got a low sex drive and is not listening to him OR she's got serious issues to work on...either way, she is responsible for how she acts TODAY...imo.


If it were the worst/ most serious past sex abuse, (yes I believe there are degrees b/c I have witnessed that)... I'd think that would be the FIRST thing he told us about b/c it would be THE thing SHE spoke of...but it's not.

Cyrene, I hear your concern and appreciate it, but ...to an extent I tire of the victimhood I was asked to walk around with by social workers and counselors "helping" me... for so long --too long. Almost wondered if I was a meal ticket for them...I mean they never let me forget it or move past...

I think Sex is a gift from God and I'm not letting anyone take that from me. Especially someone from my past.

As a counsellor who works with sex abuse victims in the legal system explained to me, when a child is being abused, its primitive brain stem (the one that asks only "am I safe/unsafe?") kicks in and orders "freeze." The child often feels nothing, sometimes seems to leave its body, and doesn't register what's happening on an accessible level. Each incident of abuse can leave a blank, as if time elapsed that can't be accounted for.

In my own case, I knew each time "something" happened, and was aware that some were "worse" than others. I didn't realize that I didn't know exactly what went on for another 15 years--I just assumed I didn't want to think about it, not that I was actually unable to access those memories.

When I did have some flashbacks, I was horrified--I had assumed "not much" had happened to me, certainly not what I was now remembering. Apparently, it takes a measure of trust in one's spouse to be able to access those repressed memories--but the effect of having them was to feel that the flashbacks were CAUSED by my H's sexual activities (they only occurred at that time). Fascinated, I saw how when my H touched me, I could freeze so completely that I couldn't feel a thing--clearly a skill I had perfected while being molested. Yet it is difficult for the primitive brain stem to separate past from present, to know when to yell "Freeze!" when sex ceases to feel safe.

Yes, it's possible to get beyond this point. Realizing that your H will not and should not tolerate a lack of sex in the marriage just because you haven't dealt with your issues yet, is a great motivator to do so. However, it is EXTREMELY difficult to grapple with an issue from which a fundamental element of your brain is attempting to protect you.

Anyhow, I couldn't let that comment pass, 25. Now carry on with your good work!

[25yearsmlc]

I'm not a big believer in recovered memories.

You might want to read the McMartin trial transcripts to see why. Repressed/recovered memories as authentic phenomena has been largely discredited in court.

But I am not passing judgement at all, on your experience.

[Cyrena]

I agree it is a huge shame that some counsellors push clients to "remember" false instances of abuse, creating a witch hunt. That shouldn't, mustn't invalidate everybody's experience with them. My point was that it can be difficult not to conflate the actions of the abuser with those of the spouse.

I agree that sexual abuse victims must take responsibility for their sexuality. I agree that they need to stop seeing themselves as victims and embrace their own power. I also refused to let some jerk from the past be an evil force in our marriage ... however, it took me 25 years from the abuse ending to figure out how to accomplish that fully. (And that was without any social workers involved.) Once I dug deep into myself, the degree to which the abuse had impacted all areas of my life was mind-blowing. And, felt wonderful to overcome.

Who knows how much SSMGuy's wife has spoken about her sexual abuse. From his perspective, it was almost irrelevant. Perhaps it has impacted her more than she knows--it's impossible to say, because she's not dealing with her issues.

You ask, "why is it okay for her to let that ruin his sex life or hers?" I don't think it is okay. I also don't believe that one person can ruin someone else's life--both partners have to take responsibility for that. SSMG seems to be enabling his wife's status as the victim, so presumably there must be a gain for him in not pushing for any change for decades.

[ssmguy]

SSMG seems to be enabling his wife's status as the victim, so presumably there must be a gain for him in not pushing for any change for decades.

I don't know how anybody could push harder. I dragged her to therapy with three different therapists over time. It's hard to push a chain.

You know, there's an unspoken assumption in these kinds of threads, and everything you hear on TV talk shows and self-help books. And that assumption is that if you just go to therapy enough, you will eventually always solve the problem. And in fact, a lot of therapy is not successful, or only partially so.

And so I've heard the reply, well, you haven't tried this or that particular therapist. And then I hear that someone went to six different therapists before they found something that worked. Well, you know, by the time you do all this, you're going to be dead from old age!

But seriously, at this point, I think her main issue is simply that she doesn't find sex interesting at all. And she doesn't see the point in it, it's been so long. And she doesn't really see why it should be such a big deal for me. And I have to say, after all this time, it's not real fun to have someone "service" you when you know darn well they are not enjoying it.

[ssmguy]

About Viagra, I find it interesting that so many people believe that virtually all men of a certain age are in need of it. Apparently, the pharma companies have done a great sales job! I mean, how could you think otherwise after those ED commercials running every single night in prime time?

[25yearsmlc]

I agree it is a huge shame that some counsellors push clients to "remember" false instances of abuse, creating a witch hunt. That shouldn't, mustn't invalidate everybody's experience with them. My point was that it can be difficult not to conflate the actions of the abuser with those of the spouse.

I agree that sexual abuse victims must take responsibility for their sexuality. I agree that they need to stop seeing themselves as victims and embrace their own power. I also refused to let some jerk from the past be an evil force in our marriage ... however, it took me 25 years from the abuse ending to figure out how to accomplish that fully. (And that was without any social workers involved.) Once I dug deep into myself, the degree to which the abuse had impacted all areas of my life was mind-blowing. And, felt wonderful to overcome.

Who knows how much SSMGuy's wife has spoken about her sexual abuse. From his perspective, it was almost irrelevant.

that's true. I picked up on its' lack of significance and accepted that at face value. But maybe it is a bigger deal to HER...we can only go by what we see here though. Such are the limitations...



Perhaps it has impacted her more than she knows--it's impossible to say, because she's not dealing with her issues.

You ask, "why is it okay for her to let that ruin his sex life or hers?" I don't think it is okay. I also don't believe that one person can ruin someone else's life--both partners have to take responsibility for that. SSMG seems to be enabling his wife's status as the victim, so presumably there must be a gain for him in not pushing for any change for decades.

also true. Hence my question about why he is here. SSm, that's why I asked if you are here to ask for permission to leave

or cheat or what?

When I suggest things to tell her, you say it'll hurt her.

well, leaving her will hurt too. So will an affair...

there's too much conflict avoidance here to have 2 happy people. My guess is that you now have 2 unhappy people in the m, b/c you are unsatisfied and she feels resentful.

You don't want her to be angry but don't think for a minute she's content with things as they are. It's just quieter this way...for now.

As for therapy...here's my .02 on it and I've done it a lot for a variety of issues.

some biggies and some "normal" life stages and transitions...

Weekly t with a good/great t can lay the groundwork for growth and smooth some things...

but for ME, when it comes to a crisis or a truly complicated issue or something that is a long standing pattern I want to break

I and most of my "enlightened friends" (i.e.,those willing to discuss this stuff)
benefit the most by going to a weekend retreat or workshop or seminar. Maybe I like brainwashing!!

Seriously, we're not into the cult things, but something geared towards making breakthroughs and coming up with action plans

is so much more "efficient" for my h and i, than weekly t's sessions that barely scratch the surface, or deal with that week's problems

instead of underlying CAUSES of problems....


I highly recommend you and your w attend something like THAT...

whether it's Retrovaille, or Essential Experience or a marriage Encounter (the deal with those is usually, they are for happy couples who simply want a tune up...

you have not had intercourse for 15 years SSm

to me, that's a marriage in crisis...and if it's not a crisis, then what is?

I mean it'd be totally different if you were okay with this...and at some level you have been.

What's that about? Why would you think it's alright to be married to someone who is SO NOT into sex that you don't have it?

You thought others were the same? A few maybe...but most people don't have one party deciding all the sex stuff

and most people are not willing to put aside this vitally important piece of themselves for so long.

I don't know why you were so willing to deny this for so long. Why do you think so? And do you have children? What do you hope for them when it comes to a vital sex life?

Why'd your w sort of like sex at first and then stop? What changed for her? Did she ever ask you to do something you didn't want to do?

have you read books on being a good lover?

And when you say she's "never had an o", you mean even with herself? in dreams?

See, you said her "hormones are normal"...and I don't really buy that. I MEAN MAYBE NOW...

but in her 20-30s...I literally dreamed of sex (not intentionally) and so, I don't understand how your w allegedly has NO sex drive and never did??

No way is that normal.

That's some serious inhibition. Anyway...

SSM, what do you want now?

[25yearsmlc]

SSMG seems to be enabling his wife's status as the victim, so presumably there must be a gain for him in not pushing for any change for decades.

I don't know how anybody could push harder. I dragged her to therapy with three different therapists over time. It's hard to push a chain.

You know, there's an unspoken assumption in these kinds of threads, and everything you hear on TV talk shows and self-help books. And that assumption is that if you just go to therapy enough, you will eventually always solve the problem. And in fact, a lot of therapy is not successful, or only partially so.

And so I've heard the reply, well, you haven't tried this or that particular therapist. And then I hear that someone went to six different therapists before they found something that worked. Well, you know, by the time you do all this, you're going to be dead from old age!

But seriously, at this point, I think her main issue is simply that she doesn't find sex interesting at all. And she doesn't see the point in it, it's been so long. And she doesn't really see why it should be such a big deal for me. And I have to say, after all this time, it's not real fun to have someone "service" you when you know darn well they are not enjoying it.

The only suggestion I have for you is to read The Five Love Languages b/c no matter what else happens, it'll help YOU and later on if she reads it, it might get her to see how you feel...but you need to read it first....

Otherwise, what do you want to do? Anything?

I don't have the magic sentence for you, or secret flower or cologne or gift.

I don't believe you have "tried everything." I think sex with you wasn't good enough for her to want to try,

so She shut down on her libido and now due to SOME natural changes she COULD fight, she doesn't feel like fighting
so now she's got a truly LOW libido...

But so what?

I mean, when my dad died I had no libido at all. & I didn't care much for the big O at that time....

But we ML anyhow... aside from knowing my h had needs I wasn't about to deny him, I MYSELF wanted to feel close to him... I missed the intimacy of ALL that love making brings, not just the O part...

When mil died, h wasn't "horny" but he wanted to feel the closeness too. Sex is about so much more than having an orgasm...when our d graduated from college, it was celebratory, after the funeral of mil, it was to comfort...

so for her not to miss THAT AT ALL, says some sad things. Don't you cuddle?

When you did ML, how long did you guys go?

Were too fast? ARe her memories of the one sided type event so that she doesn't even miss the cuddling b/c there wasn't all that much of it?

On one hand I'm tempted to say your lack of experience probably made it a drag for her so she gave up on caring about her libido...

OR maybe you were GREAT - the world's best lover but she never had a libido...

but that doesn't explain the lack of ALL physical intimacy...

Maybe it's something in between?

BTW, don't feel harshly judged here.

I understand why you would not be "THE BEST" b/c neither of you were experienced and she wasn't a communicator...so it was tougher for you to learn what she needed. She might not even know. And you are not a mind reader. But you have to understand what most men today know, which is that if both people haven't gotten their cookies, there's some "loving work" left to do...

So, somehow you have to show her that SEX W/YOU, CAN BE GOOD FOR HER...

b/c apparently, based on what YOU insist upon here, it's not enough for her to know you are lonely for intimacy and touch...she won't DO anything just for those reasons...meaning,

she doesn't care enough to change for you...according to you.

So then, either you accept that, move on and cope better

or you DO SOMETHING about it.

And that's all I have for now. And

PS I don't think a weekly T is the solution for your problems but if she won't go to one, an hour a week,

in some ways she is less likely to do a weekend retreat...(though you never know til you ask)

If I were you, I would want to know I'd left no stone unturned before leaving or hurting her.

But when You say ALL the other parts of the m are great, I find it hard to believe b/c sex is such an important, personal INTIMATE part...how can you be fully intimate with someone and deny them physically?

Make no mistake, I don't believe you are the only one with unmet needs here at all. I think she's so lonely she can't even express it.

But Since you are the one here posting - all I can do is focus on you.

Sad sitch though. Hope you change yourself or your behavior

b/c that is all YOU can do.

You get that, right?

[25yearsmlc]

ps

when you "dragged her" to three therapists...was she ever in a safe enough supportive enough of a place

where she could say, out loud, that she simply didn't find you satisfying?

I mean, at least then we'd know there was a chance of things improving, b/c you CAN improve...

understood?

[ssmguy]

Yes, I think so. We had a mixture of individual and joint therapy sessions so that we could both say things freely. There was never even a hint of any complaint about my sexual technique. In fact, I would have been happy if there had been something clear that she found unsatisfying, because then it would mean I had something clear that I could work on, and it would also mena she was engaged in the therapy. As it was, she just dreaded every session, no matter how nice and careful the therapists were. She could never get over the feeling that she was being taken to the woodshed for her lack of interest in sex.

To make the catch-22 aspect of this clear, she would say that the whole process of going to therapy was a "real sexual turnoff". Well, as experienced had shown, not going to therapy wasn't working either.

[ssmguy]

The only suggestion I have for you is to read The Five Love Languages...

I'll get the Kindle sample and take a look. Thanks!

Otherwise, what do you want to do? Anything?

Not sure, keep trying. The one thing I'm ruling out is a secret emotional-and-sexual affair. That almost happened several times, but I could see the potential conflict before it happened and it scared me. It puzzles me how other men don't see that before they get into a conflict where they realize they have to give up something they didn't expect to give up! Seems like some men lack emotional intelligence, if not plain common sense.

I don't believe you have "tried everything." I think sex with you wasn't good enough for her to want to try,

That's certainly possible. Perhaps I could have done more, or she didn't know enough to make it better for herself. We were both inexperienced, and frankly, still are! I think I could have done a better job of encouraging more participation on her side early on when she was the most open to new ideas. Not sure how far I could have gotten on that because I do remember suggesting a number of erotic things early on, some of which she was enthusiastic about.... BUT, as it turns out, only to do once, as if it was a novelty.

As an example, I tried touching and kissing her breasts when we first met, as part of being playful when we were about to ML. Well, she put a stop to that right off the bat. She didn't want to be touched there or a number of other places, ever. I was kind of shocked at the time, but figured she would probably mellow over time and be more open. Well, that never happened.

so for her not to miss THAT AT ALL, says some sad things. Don't you cuddle?

Food for thought... Yes, it does say sad things. No we don't really cuddle anymore. I try to once in a while, but she doesn't really return the hug with much enthusiasm. It's sort of clinical, apparently to avoid any indication that she's interesting in a thaw, which might start me thinking that things are warming up, which would lead to sex down the road. She's careful to avoid even going down that road, even though she now feels safe that I won't ask for sex, because I don't and haven't in several years.

When you did ML, how long did you guys go?

Well, chuckle, I never timed it exactly. But it was NEVER shorter than she wanted it. It was almost always longer than she wanted, as she would ask me to finish up. I would say 15-30 minutes most times, though early on we had a few marathon sessions lasting hours -- but again, I think she did that for the coolness of the novelty of it. A few times, she would let me have sex twice within a few hours. But she never let me have sex three times in a row, even though I asked. In her opinion, that was just "ridiculous". She was never much interested in having sex last a long time except for the first few times we ML. Though I do remember her saying that it felt good to have intercourse in the early days, even though she never had an O. And she lubricated very well in the early days.

Were too fast? ARe her memories of the one sided type event so that she doesn't even miss the cuddling b/c there wasn't all that much of it?

I'm a cuddling playful humorous type of person, so I don't think she ever missed that. I'd always spend hours cuddling and rolling on the floor with the kids when they were young. Never got tired of it. They always energized me. Never understood parents who were "tired" of their kids.

On one hand I'm tempted to say your lack of experience probably made it a drag for her so she gave up on caring about her libido...

I would agree with that but say that she made it a drag for herself by not ever letting me try anything. I think I suggested just about everything in the book in terms of stimulation techniques, but she adamantly refused most of them. And I think she was very self-conscious about the fact that she was never having an O, and I seemed to be able to have them all the time, as often as I wanted, when I wanted, right on cue. The contrast couldn't have been greater in that sense. Maybe that made her feel inadequate, I don't know -- she never said anything about that. She had me believing, and perhaps she believed as well, that women in general don't have a lot of O's the way men do.

OR maybe you were GREAT - the world's best lover but she never had a libido...

Well, I think I could be, if given the chance. I love talk, massage, cuddling, foreplay, and never had any of the supposedly common problems men have with their sexual functioning. I think she felt I was always pushing for more and that I was just too obsessed with all this sex stuff.

BTW, don't feel harshly judged here.

After what I've been through, I have a pretty thick skin when it comes to sexual matters. ;-)

I understand why you would not be "THE BEST" b/c neither of you were experienced and she wasn't a communicator...so it was tougher for you to learn what she needed. She might not even know. And you are not a mind reader. But you have to understand what most men today know, which is that if both people haven't gotten their cookies, there's some "loving work" left to do...

Makes good sense.

So, somehow you have to show her that SEX W/YOU, CAN BE GOOD FOR HER...

Yes! I keep trying. I've even listed for her the medical benefits of sex, such as increased immunity, etc. But it's tough, for example, to explain that sex would be pleasurable for her because that immediately touches on the issue that she can't have orgasms. I even bought her a book, years ago, on women become orgasmic, and I think she threw it in the trash. Never saw the book after that, or heard her say anything about it. So if I say nothing, the issue is not faced. But if I say something, then I'm putting pressure on a woman to have an O, and THAT, of course, is a huge turnoff. Lose-lose situation.

...in some ways she is less likely to do a weekend retreat...(though you never know til you ask)

We do go on vacations together, and enjoy romantic dinners, and even dancing. But we both know the routine in the bedroom after that, which is nothing. Like brother and sister who are best friends.

You know, everybody thinks I'm in a terrible marriage, just because their isn't sex. Well, maybe the problem is that I'm just so used to it! It's no different, really, from when I was in high school, and had the same sky-high erotic imagination and libido I do now. I lived with my family and enjoyed every moment of it, even though I never had a sexual partner in high school. I knew how to do it then, and it's the same thing now. Same coping methods. It's not cancer, you know.

But when You say ALL the other parts of the m are great, I find it hard to believe b/c sex is such an important, personal INTIMATE part...how can you be fully intimate with someone and deny them physically?

So how did I enjoy living with my family in high school, even though sex was important to me then too?!!