Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[sandi2]

Oh come on......that's just being a tease! When are you going to give us chapter 2 & 3?

[ssmguy]

[quote]
...That dialogue was, for us, a great way to start addressing the problem.

Not a bad way to broach a more accepting and friendly dialog. I've done the same in the form of hints and self-deprecating humor on the topic, which indirectly reminded her that I'm interested. I even remind her that she looks great and sexy.

But I don't expect that to lead to better intimacy, and it hasn't.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Love No. 2

Although my HS girlfriend (Love No.1 ) produced a deep feeling of love, I didn't speak of her very much when I met Love No. 2 (it was my mom that told her how much I loved my HS girlfriend).

We met at the end of the sophomore spring semester just before final exams (my HS girlfriend and I had gone our separate ways as I began my sophomore year in the fall). And although she was pursuing me, I was hesitant because she seemed to have some unfinished business with her "former" boyfriend/fiancee. I was clear that I did not want to get in the middle of something, even though I was otherwise interested.

I went home during part of the summer (coming back for second session of summer school). We wrote letters that became longer and more intimate about the hopes and dreams we each had for ourselves and our lives. There were some complications (I was really serious about her previous relationship being over), but I was eventually convinced that previous relationship was over and our letters became more suggestive and erotic.

When I returned to campus for the second summer school session, it did not take long before I lost my virginity to her. I was not her first sexual partner though she was mine.

I "performed" well, thanks to listening carefully to my friends (particularly my female ones) and a nice little book by Cosmopolitan which I still have. It wasn't until much, much later that she found out that was my first time. She assumed and then reinforced the idea that all my "experience" or apparent experience came through my sexual relationship with my HS girlfriend.

Fast forward through a remarkable sex-life. In the second year (after she graduated and lived off campus), we stumbled somewhat. The sex was still reliably good, but the closeness that so characterized the times during and between sexual encounters was less reliably there. And we began to drift apart. Suddenly, the sort of certainty (and exclusiveness) of our relationship just did not seem to be there. Her old boyfriend, the one from two years earlier, was somehow back in the picture. In addition, there seemed to be a coworker of hers that was a bit too present.

It was during this troubled patch that I ran into my old HS girlfriend and the way we reconnected threw all of what I felt about Love No. 2 into question. But as nice and surprising as the sexual possibility with Love No. 1 was, I eventually realized that she and I were still stuck in a non-sexual space. In retrospect, that was a good realization.

Now we were not married, had not even discussed marriage or what our combined future might be now that we were out of school.

Eventually, I came back (literally) from my family home in VA and began to patch up the relationship with Love No. 2. Although she never asked (and I did not volunteer) what happened with my former girlfriend, I also did not ask (and she has never volunteered) what if anything was going on with her former boyfriend or anyone else. She surmised that something happened that was sexual (she was right only in the direction it was going).

And in rebuilding, we considered our future together (and that there was one) leading to an engagement and eventually to marriage (two years after this rough patch in our relationship). Sexually, things were not only as good as they had ever been, they were better. Making love with her was always like making love for the first time.

A little over two years after we were married we made the decision to start our family and all through the pregnancy, the sex was frequent and very intense, right up to the day before she went into labor.

And then it all stopped. Now part of that was the C-section and what was once so very easy was now difficult. But it was more than that. Three years after our son was born we had only ML only 9-10 times. About that time she met someone 7 years younger than us. About 10 months later, right before our 7th wedding anniversary she revealed that she was having an affair.

Although, I was willing to work on this, there was nothing I could do to save this marriage. Love No. 2, who chose to be in a relationship with me only to get what she wanted (in this case a child and motherhood, which she freely admits) only to become non-sexual with me and ultimately dispose of me and our marriage.

I could not fathom why I was so utterly cutoff (and punished) by my wife from any real sex life (only to be blindsided by this affair). What was my sin? Two actually.

First, I was not the father she had imagined for our son. There is a whole conversation about how that turned out.

Second, two years before we were married, as described above, I had revived feelings, albeit briefly for my former girlfriend. It was not until much later when we were about to be divorced that she finally made the sexual accusation and that's when I leveled with her. Yes, in one sense I came incredibly close to having sexual intercourse with her and no I had not ever had sexual intercourse with her. She must have believed me because of what she said to me next.

My ex-wife, Love No. 2 (in sequence, not intensity compared to No. 1) had gone from a deeply sexually satisfying relationship to one where there was barely any sex at all. Or once a gain, a woman who found a way to get close to me so that she could ultimately NOT be sexual with me.

Love No. 3 is my current wife and that has also devolved to a non-sexual relationship...no sex at all since April 6, 1997, no attempts at sex since November 11, 1997.

That's my experience with long-term relationships. Woman who get involved with me, just so they don't have to be sexual.

I hope that clarifies my comment for you.

The Captain

[ssmguy]

...that she had maintained a long-term relationship with another woman.

And in that instant I understood what I had been "fighting" while falling deeply in love with her. As long as I allowed her to be with me and non-sexual, we were remarkably close. Sex got in the way.

Reminds of the gender-reversed situation where a young gay man has a girlfriend while he's trying to come to terms with his orientation. She falls in love with him and provides him with emotional support (maybe needed in particular because of his struggle), but they never become sexual. She's hoping for more, but is eventually heartbroken as she learns the truth and he comes out of the closet. Dan Savage explained the not-too-uncommon situation in one of his podcasts. Dan was angry about his fellow gay men "using" women like this. Women in this situation are sometimes refered to as fag hags. Don't know if there is a similar name for men in the gender-reversed situation.

[aeolianchaos]

That's my experience with long-term relationships. Woman who get involved with me, just so they don't have to be sexual.

Thank you for sharing all of this. It was deeply personal and very informative.

Have you considered that perhaps it isn't that they choose to get involved with you so that they don't have to be sexual, but rather that the dynamics of your relationships with them (and their relationship with you) lead to this outcome?

Is there an interest in sex at first, but then it diminishes/disappears?

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

A final couple of words about whether the woman I've been with thought the sex was enjoyable: if they are to be believed the answer is yes. The physiological responses seem to match their appreciation.

My ex-wife told me, as we got further away from the pain of the affair and the divorce, that I am still the best lover she has ever had.

And my current wife, although this is old news, had the following reaction after we became sexually involved: "Your wife gave this up?" I've tried not compare the two for obvious reasons. Her big fear was that my soon to be ex-wife would change her mind about me (including the missed sex-life) and might decide to come back to reclaim me or at least to try to reconcile the marriage.

The third lover I've had was a good friend with whom there had been lots of sexual teasing and innuendo between the two of us over the years. I had been a shoulder for her to cry upon.

It was good if s little strange. But it changed the way we spoke to each other because we now knew what it was like to be with each other and we both knew it could happen again if we weren't careful or weren't otherwise ready to take a close friendship straight into romance. We had mutual friends that we did not share this with. We maintained our friendship for quite some time after but it was a little weird knowing that we had been able to drop the pretense and sexually pleasure each other and according to her it was really great.

I have sometimes wondered if that and a few others were a missed opportunity.



Let me say a few words about my weight gain.

During much of early life, weight was really not an issue. I was always in the range of 165-175 pounds as a young adult. During the period after my son was born, my weight did creep up to between 190 and 195 pounds over a three year period. I was less active and traveling much more. After discovering the affair, I lost all that weight and more. It wasn't so much intentional as the emotional strain, and the fact I was not traveling as much any longer. In fact, in the year after the affair, I dropped back to less than 160 pounds. But that was almost too light and building muscle strength for some of my high altitude activities brought my weight back up.


When my current wife and I met, I was back in top form. I could run a 10K road race clipping off 6-1/2 minute miles, ski day after day on long western ski slopes that totaled tens of thousands of vertical feet, climbed mountains, backpacked solo in wilderness areas.

But then again I was 32 years old, a more than a year and a half out from discovering my ex-wife's affair. I was about 170-175 pounds when my current wife and I first met.

Part of my sexual capabilities, performance-wise, was tied to my physical conditioning. Physical exhaustion wasn't really much of a concern on my part. I knew that. Making love was not something to be rushed through...one could always find enough time (an hour or two) to take our time and really enjoy ourselves. And I was physically up to it.

Part was just being in-tune with my body (and with hers). I didn't worry about my own orgasm. Hey, if I was a little quicker than normal, we could keep going and really draw out a second one. We used to joke about that in the context of a Chinese dinner...it wasn't over until we both got our cookies. But I describe my own orgasm experience as something like 'relaxing into orgasm' and for me there was more than just 'one type.'

Finally, there was what nature provided. Size can matter.

I stayed pretty active throughout those first six years of our relationship before we got married. When we got married in 92 (I was then age 39, she was 45) my weight was 185. And although I was less active than I had been early in our relationship, I was still less than 190 by 1997.

But after 1998, when it became clear that our sex-life had ended (and I have told her that when she said that she was not willing to be sexual with me at any level or at any frequency, I knew that our sex life had come to an end and she had ended it), there was a bit of a "pity-party" on my part.

Like, why bother to maintain a healthy weight, stamina or they way I look if sex is no longer part of the relationship? I remember thinking that.

Now the weight gain was not immediate or rapid. It took from 1997 to late 2007 to go from 190 pounds to 248 as a peak short-term weight 9dsy-to-day was something like 244-245).

I began the weight loss in 2008 and have stair-stepped down in weight to my current weight which is wobbling in the 186-189 range (I'm on a plan to drop to 175 so this wobble is characteristic of how my weight adjusts.

Even at a relatively stable weight of 190, my body continued to change (to catch up). So, I'm headed back to a target weight.

And yes she, and others, have noticed. Since I have not been sexually active in years, I don't have any idea of what I've lost in terms of physical or sexual stamina or capabilities.

I only have the standard body statistics to work with: my weight, BP of 102/67, resting heart rate back down 55-60 bpm. No problems going 10 miles per day walking/hiking distance (with or without a pack). This summer when I was in NM at 7000 feet above sea level, I expected the altitude to preset a bit of a challenge to my exercise routine. Though I was aware of the thinner air, it did not hold me back from going at my normal pace. It did run my heart rate up about 10 percent higher than it's usual rate under load.

But other than making an accusation, noting that I'm going into smaller clothes or that older ones fit once again...I can't say whether I'm any more pleasing to the eye than I was before.

I know that I am pleased with what I see when I look in the mirror (I really noticed this summer when we were on vacation). My stomach is almost flat again, the love handles largely gone. But the weight loss wasn't for her, nor was it the immediate result I set out upon.

Noe I'm meandering and I want to finish one more response before I spread out in my usual place to sleep.

The Captain

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

Jack:

I like the shopping analogy. But it seems to use that analogy after we have nearly 14-1/2 years of no sex, no sex play, no sexual anything that I basically have to draw the comparison and contrast that I refuse to do anything together with her that she otherwise likes or uses me for.

Since its not something that occasionally happens according to her schedule, its something that now never happens and has not happened for a long, long time, the only analogy would be, for example, to never go shopping with her.

But given the explicit message that to move from a sexless marriage will require her to speak the words to UNDO her choice, she has not or will not speak those words.

My "venting" is just my momentary lack of acceptance of the way things are and who she is in this matter.

The Captain

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

I have considered this dynamic. My current wife has observed that various social "misfits," notably some people we know with aspergers syndrome find it very easy to be in my presence.

Her observation is that I don't immediately 'judge them' in a way that is more characteristic of broader society. In a sense I let them 'be" who they are. But because they might miss social cues, they might violate certain boundaries of social norms and I need to mindful of that.

I can give a couple of examples.

That is not the only type of example. Years ago when I was working with a disaster recovery group, the FEMA representative noted that in the chaos and the upset of the disaster, some victims seemed to migrate to me as a very calming influence. I was seemingly unaffected by the conditions and could tend to what they needed. I seemed to handle conditions better than some of my coworkers.

When asked about this and if I had any training in this, I said "no." "It's not about me, it's about them and what they need in the moment. It's not that I am unaffected, I am affected. I tend to notice it and then move on.

So, in that external observation by my wife and others, I sometimes wonder if she realizes that she is, in a way, including herself in the field of misfits that I allow to be who they really are.

In my first marriage, the dramatic change in sex was striking and unexpected. The affair and WAW was, from what I've pieced together, a defensive move: fear that I would leave my wife and son because of the lack of sex. That's just one layer of the onion. But in three different cases, no level of frustration and/or complaint about sex has altered the behavior of the other person.

In essence, I feel "lied to."

Another possible way of viewing this is that if I did not want this to happen then I should never have gotten involved with anyone and certainly not gotten married because 'expectations" are what keeps getting in the way and feeding the complaint.

The Captain

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

The term is fag stag. I looked it up

I can laugh about it now, but it was frustrating a the moment.

I mean the astonishment I had after she got into the shower with me was one thing.

The astonishment she expressed when she turned me around to face her (and I was fully erect, the first time she had seen me that way) and my assuring her that "it would fit" is what i can laugh about in the context of her eventually coming out of the closet.

A good friend of mine (younger than I am) went through a similar experience. In retrospect, we missed some signs. But we were young and the gender identity of the girls/woman we were involved with were still developing.

The Captain

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Not a bad way to broach a more accepting and friendly dialog. I've done the same in the form of hints and self-deprecating humor on the topic, which indirectly reminded her that I'm interested. I even remind her that she looks great and sexy.

But I don't expect that to lead to better intimacy, and it hasn't.

Going to be blunt here, you didn't do the same thing. I was direct but not confrontational.

Subtle doesn't work. Hint's don't work, they backfire. It's like saying someone should 'know' what you want without you telling them. In the end that just upset both parties.

It's DB 101 man...TRY something different. You WANT sex with your wife and what you have been doing hasn't been working.