I didn't use venting as a bad word here, I think it is healthy to vent to others who might share in the problem, pain or even have advice.
After 14 years, I'm not sure what to say, except that I'm not sure I could have done that. After 14 years that task of overcoming the problem must seem daunting or impossible. After 14 years? I think I'd start hating my wife if she disdained something so vital and important to me, something I could only morally do with her.
Like ss TRY something different, but with 14 years? Those changes aren't going to be noticed quickly. Not days, weeks or months...but who knows? Maybe 15 or 16 years and you get back to a place where sex is a maintenance tool for your marriage.
IF nothing changes? If you don't try, this is your lot.
Quote:
Woman who get involved with me, just so they don't have to be sexual.
Don't buy into this. Don't accept this and do not believe it. That right there is borderline acceptance of a sexless marriage. And F that.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
Going to be blunt here, you didn't do the same thing. I was direct but not confrontational.
Subtle doesn't work. Hint's don't work, they backfire. It's like saying someone should 'know' what you want without you telling them. In the end that just upset both parties.
It's not easy to convey all the things I've tried in 15 years. The joking and light hinting is only what I've been doing in recent times. At first, I was very blunt, and insisted on talking about it to the point that she became almost hysterical, knowing that I was going to approach her and have "the talk" yet again because she had tried to get out of having the talk the last time. I dragged her to a number of therapists over the years, where things were discussed very bluntly.
Believe me, there is no possibility that she does not know what I want. I'm kind and joking about it now because the bluntess of the past made her feel unsafe and pressured to the point of depression. I'm respecting who and what she is at this point, which includes not making her feel really bad for it. I only make it clear to her now what it is I'm missing, without claiming there is anything "wrong" with her. Negativity doesn't work. Been there and tried it. Bluntness does not work in my case. Been there and tried that too and it almost ended our marriage until I lightened up.
As my wife used to say in a somewhat manipulative way, complaining about lack of sex is not a turn-on! And yeah, who can argue with that!
Don't buy into this. Don't accept this and do not believe it. That right there is borderline acceptance of a sexless marriage.
This is not something that I've walked around thinking all my life, this is a plausible explanation that matches the facts.
But as ssmguy said above, it is difficult to convey all the the different ways that one approaches this issue. This diminishing sex all the way down to zero is something that has been an issue for more than 20 years and it seems (from the evidence) that nothing that involves "staying" makes any difference.
This is just the way some women are and for the men in their lives it can be a toxic environment.
The Captain
Last sex: 04/06/1997 Last attempt: 11/11/1997 W Issues "No Means No" Declaration: 11/11/1997 W chooses to terminate sex 05/1998 I gained 60, then lost 85 pounds. Start running again (marathons)
I have to agree with Jack--any friend who has discussed it, any experience I've had, of periods of low/no sex, it has not been that these women PLANNED, consciously or not, to marry someone who they thought they could be sexless with. It was always a reaction to how they felt about other issues in the marriage. And to say "this is just the way some women are" is not convincing, without hearing from the women themselves.
Of course, to say that "this is just the way some women are" is never an explanation. I would say, "we don't know what it is".
But I also don't find it convincing to make the default assumption that for a woman, it is some issue about the marriage. Would you make the same assumption about a man with ED? Is the best "assumption" that a man has ED because of issues with the marriage?
Though you didn't say it exactly, I get the impression that you're buying into general thinking that if either the man or the woman isn't functioning sexually, it's most likely the fault of the man. Besides, the man can just pop a pill.
Both David Schnarch and Al Turtle, well-respected sex and marriage therapists respectively, teach that people marry those who are best able to help them overcome their issues, because they invariably have equal but opposite issues of their own. Each is the ideal "sparring" partner to teach the other how to grow. However, if one/both refuse to grow, then they rub each other's wounds raw.
No, I don't believe that if a woman refuses to have sex that it's the man's fault. It is a symptom of both their unresolved issues in conflict.
I have to agree with Jack--any friend who has discussed it, any experience I've had, of periods of low/no sex, it has not been that these women PLANNED, consciously or not, to marry someone who they thought they could be sexless with. It was always a reaction to how they felt about other issues in the marriage. And to say "this is just the way some women are" is not convincing, without hearing from the women themselves.
AMEN...I'd love to have a chat with your w (I know that's not going to happen but I wish it could)
to hear her views. I don't know ANY women born with low sex drives.
I DO know some women who don't' have high libido NOW, but each of those women are in marriages with troubles, or past issues that led to it.
I agree that there are damaged women (abuse victims) but that's something you'd know going into the m.
Developing a sexless m, not okay. It's a vital part of the m and you are only allowed to have it with her, and she denies you this...for 14 YEARS?
Like Jack3 says, DB 101--***Do something different**
14 years...as much as I've needed/given forgiveness in my m, I truly think THAT would be dealbreaker for me (Unless h physically could not, of course--that's a "sickness/health" vow)
But 14 years of choosing not to have sexual intimacy with me? That would feel a lot like 14 YEARS of rejection to me.
So Tea, honestly, how important is it to You?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
"Unless or until she changes her mind about this or this marriage comes to an end, I see no path out."
Yep, you drew a line in the sand, didn't you? How's that working for you?
From here, I cannot imagine being your W and starting a sexual R with you. You sound extremely passive aggressive. You've locked a no-win situation in stone. Her libido is at 0, and you require her to both initiate and be horny and enjoy sex for anything to be different. It is not going to happen.
Do you think after 14 years it is time to quit stubbornly sulking and try something different?
How about an apology? "W, I let us both down, I am deeply sorry. 14 years ago I didn't respect your boundaries. When you tried to enforce them, I reacted badly. Then I tried to force the answer I wanted from you about a commitment for sex, and when I didn't get it, I made it extreme in my own head. I made believe that you said that you would never have sex with me again and that if I ever tried to change that you would count that as me ignoring "no means no." But you didn't say that. I have been stubbornly sulking for 14 years. I have been waiting for you to come over to me and make it all better. Instead, I should have let go of my fiction years ago and tried to be a partner to you, including being a sexual partner, instead of a stubborn, sulking, self-indulgent needy boy. I've been working on changing that, on being a better man. With that has come a wait loss. And with that comes a man who insists on having a better partnership with his W, including a better sexual partnership. I love you, I miss you, I ache for you. Let me have space to learn and grow. Hear my apology. Let us heal."
