Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[25yearsmlc]

ssm

I want you to know I HAVE given more thought to your questions earlier, and still am.

Here's one possible recap and let me know if I'm getting this wrong.

Did you marry your w with the belief, however founded, that she liked sex?

Then later on, did you ever feel you had been misled? OR maybe even as if a "bait and switched" had occurred?

What specifically, did YOU tell HER about YOUR needs?

FWIW, My h's brother married a woman who SEEMED to enjoy sex when they dated. She surely Never complained and she had many O's, or so she said/yelled/etc.

Turns out she wanted a baby and he fit the bill as good father material. She said she did not enjoy sex for unitive purposes, just procreative (or words to that effect). This shocked and hurt bil.

She got pregnant right after marrying and then shared this with bil AND then cut him off of sex, until if and when they were to have another child. (They had a baby girl they both adored.)

BIL loved his d, but maritally, he felt "defrauded" and he planned to leave. He told her the defrauded part when they went to mc, which she only agreed to attend b/c he was leaving.

She admitted that in fact she COULD have an orgasm under "certain conditions" but had faked the O's with him.

To his credit, he went out that night to a few stores and bought every gadget available. They helped.

That improved things for them, along with a lot of marital counselling AND sex therapy, with bil attending about every 4th session,

and then they went to some "sexy life marriage" retreat. They now have 4 kids. It's not perfect, but it has lasted. There wasn't an abuse issue in her past, but a lot of neurotic controlling things.

I thought of you when I recalled his using the term "Defrauded" and it almost sounded like what you felt when you discovered she did not like sex or no longer did...or would not learn to.

Another thing he said that reminded me of you or tea, was that

her "reluctant concessions" for weekly sex made HIM feel like he was raping her and that wasn't appealing to HIM.

He had a healthy sexual self image that included him being a good lover who satisfied his women, and in his past dating life that appeared true. (I happen to know it was true b/c of the girls he dated whom I knew. They LOVED him)

It took a lot of work on their r to get his w to see how important it was to him to be desired as a man and to feel good as a lover.

BIL's wife asked my opinion and I told her I felt he was being very reasonable and more than that.

Maybe some men would be okay with twice a week 5 min sex just to satisfy themselves and not even care about their partners....but BIL wanted to "make love", not just have sex. Her satisfaction mattered a lot to him.

She pressed me for more thoughts and it was awkward. I asked her if it was HIM or just sex in general and she said mostly sex (her issue with "him" was that he "wanted it so much", but she conceded that his technique was "very nice, actually" like she was surprised...)

I finally told her I feared she would lose him, b/c I had not heard of any happy couples not having sex, by unilateral choice.

Said I felt she was very unfair to refuse to work on or see a professional about important "issues" that she had hidden from him.

But she woke up. They DID the work and they have managed to have a family and they seem affectionate in public. Though the sex issue was a constant ordeal for 3 or 4 years or so, I'm told it's "much better in the bedroom" now.

BIL told her that he'd leave her after the baby was born if it didn't get better within a year.
I think youngatheart gave his wife a "loving" ultimatum of sorts too,

and if I recall correctly in his case it has changed their m dramatically for the better.

It was absolutely sex issues that almost ended their m. But they solved it. So I've seen it happen.

What have you got to lose by telling her how important this is for you?

When you say you've "tried everthing", can you list a few specifically?

[ssmguy]

Did you marry your w with the belief, however founded, that she liked sex?

Sure, it was one of my most important requirements. I had a hunch my libido would be unwavering for many years, and I was right.

Then later on, did you ever feel you had been misled? OR maybe even as if a "bait and switched" had occurred?

Yes, but I don't think she knew her libido would drop. In general, I hear that from a lot of women as they go through childbirth, menopause, and stresses of life. I've often heard them say, "What happened to my libido?" and they say they miss it. That's certainly not ever been my problem. Mine has been there, ready to go, virtually every day of my life since my early teens.

What specifically, did YOU tell HER about YOUR needs?

Oh, we talked about it a lot when we first met. It was a prime topic of conversation, fun, and flirtation. But neither of us had any previous experience.

Turns out she wanted a baby and he fit the bill as good father material. She said she did not enjoy sex for unitive purposes, just procreative (or words to that effect). This shocked and hurt bil.

I'd take that with a grain of salt. I don't think we really plan life that way when we first meet someone. I mean, at some level, when I look at an attractive woman and feel my heart skip a beat, I sometimes smile about my reaction because I realize it's just nature's attempt to get me to get her pregnant. The baby instinct is very strong for some women, and I don't think there is anything wrong or unusual about that.

She admitted that in fact she COULD have an orgasm under "certain conditions" but had faked the O's with him.

Well, my wife never faked them for me. I can say that for sure, unfortunately!

I thought of you when I recalled his using the term "Defrauded" and it almost sounded like what you felt when you discovered she did not like sex or no longer did...or would not learn to.

There was never a sudden discovery. It was a gradual thing. I don't think there was any deliberate deception on her part. It's just that I believed all those books which said that women become more comfortable with sex as they age... even heard an expert the other day on a show say that again. While men are in their prime at 18 and lose interest gradually as they age. Yeah, right!!! I guess that's what I'm maybe more angry about...how that "expert advice" turned out to be totally effing wrong on ALL counts in our case. Had I known better early on, there might have been a much better chance of getting things on the right track.

Another thing he said that reminded me of you or tea, was that her "reluctant concessions" for weekly sex made HIM feel like he was raping her and that wasn't appealing to HIM.

You got that right. It can have an affect on the high libido partner too, and even turning them off of partnered sex with all the negative feedback. And depending on their sexual makeup, could even tempt them into other sexual fantasies and outlets they might not have considered before. It's a scenario, where, unfortunately for the marriage, the high libido partner may do a better job of preserving their desire for partnered sex by having an affair. A lot of negative feedback from a sexual partner can alter the sexuality of a high libido partner, and even make him (if it's a man) situationally impotent with a partner. Kind of the flip side of the coin how sex as a duty can make a low-libido partner more aversive to sex.

Maybe some men would be okay with twice a week 5 min sex just to satisfy themselves and not even care about their partners....but BIL wanted to "make love", not just have sex. Her satisfaction mattered a lot to him.

Never understood fast sex. If it's really pleasurable, why have it be over in 5 minutes? Never understood that. If I'm having sex just to satisfy myself, it would last much longer. My wife never complained it didn't last long enough. In the best times early on, she would indicate it felt good, and that I didn't have to continue for her sake.

She pressed me for more thoughts and it was awkward. I asked her if it was HIM or just sex in general and she said mostly sex (her issue with "him" was that he "wanted it so much", but she conceded that his technique was "very nice, actually" like she was surprised...)

Interesting. I don't think my wife would ever say anything like that because she doesn't allow much of anything that would be considered a "technique". Again, we're probably an unusual couple in that I always wanted more foreplay, massage, etc., and have it last a long time. She claimed she was happier just going straight to intercourse after some brief kissing. I think that was to avoid all the touching that she never allowed.

I finally told her I feared she would lose him, b/c I had not heard of any happy couples not having sex, by unilateral choice.

Well, there certainly are couples where both are happily in agreement not to have sex. But I'm sure that's not the norm.

BIL told her that he'd leave her after the baby was born if it didn't get better within a year.
[/b]I think youngatheart gave his wife a "loving" ultimatum of sorts too,

I said similar things, but never followed through on the threats. But I certainly felt that way when I made the threats.

What have you got to lose by telling her how important this is for you?

Nothing. But after telling her that 100 times over years, it becomes an annoying, "Oh here we go again with that discussion" kind of thing. I could go right now and tell her again, for the 482nd time. How likely is that to work?

When you say you've "tried everthing", can you list a few specifically?

Couples sex therapy for 6 months with some of the best, marriage therapy with 3 other counselors over the years. We go out to restaurants, dancing, vacations, movies. Gifts, appreciative cards, daily chats, text messages many times a day, one or two phone calls during work just to check on status, what's happening for the evening, etc. Time with extended family. Back massages, foot rubs, compliments. Just no interest in sex on her part.

I do realize my perspective is skewed because I never had what some people would call a full sexual relationship.

[ssmguy]

btw, when a man says he's "not getting any", he won't. Just an fyi okay, but that's a remark that will get you nowhere fast.

Yes, she's said that too. But surely you must know that's not the only thing I say in 15 years!

"Dragging her" to sex t's...is just an example of wording that freaks me out.

Yeah, that was a real catch-22. She just did not want to go, ever. No matter how positively I put it. She finally went, reluctantly in each case.

I appreciate that you are inexperienced sexually but it does not seem to really hit you that sex for her, with you wasn't good. she tried often at first but having bad unrewarding sex does lower one's libido.

You might be right. But even in retrospect, how could I have made it better when she refused all sexual touching aside from straight missionary intercourse? And I could certainly perform that as well and as long as she wanted. I assumed her reluctance to be sexually touched otherwise was just embarrassment due to inexperience. Later she tied it to messages from her youth. And later still, she tied it to brief periods of sexual abuse, which was news to me.

Maybe she said she hasn't had an orgasm or can't, so that you won't fruitlessly pressure her to have one.

I didn't pressure her at all for many years, not even once, because I believed all those books which said that women become more comfortable with their sexuality as they age. I certainly had more than my fair share of good orgasms (based on stats in all those expert books), so I was happy. But I didn't realize at the time how this would establish a long-term pattern which might have contributed to her loss of libido -- her seeing how often and how much I enjoyed it, and she obviously getting less out of it.

It's a fine balance. If you try too hard to please a woman, it's a turn off because you're putting pressure on her. If you don't try, the woman finds you a poor lover. Even in retrospect, I don't see that I did anything clearly wrong in my case, which came out in therapy. There's really no getting around the fact that to a certain degree, a woman needs to develop her own sexuality and know how her body reaches orgasm, for her to fully enjoy sex. This business that a woman is just a naive virgin and never had an orgasm, and a man comes along with lots of knowlege and experience in the art of love, and opens her up to the pleasures of love...well, that's a bit unrealistic, I'm sure you'll agree.

In retrospect, I think she viewed me as someone who might be able to carry her away from her repressed past and sexual abuse. And it seemed to work at first, and then the issues kind of came back with a vengance.

have YOU sought out sex counselling from a sex t? Yes just you...how could that hurt?

Yes, for both of us, and for just me too.

without your w there you won't have to fear any embarrassment and you can ask them all the frank questions you want...

Embarrassment is not an issue for me on sexual matters. Which my wife admired about me when we first met. And later hated! It's not the first time I've heard how a spouse learns to hate the very quality they first admired in their partner. Not sure what the theory is behind that.

Or lower your libido.

Not a chance. I've learned to live with it and I love it. I think of frustration as the price you sometimes have to pay for the gift of a high libido. And I have come to think of it as a gift when I hear how many people are struggling to increase it.

[ssmguy]

SOUNDS like the logical solution, 25!

SSMGuy, although you claim there are no problems except those generated around the lack of sex, those issues reach into many more areas. ...... I find it inconcievable that these negative attitudes & behaviours can be neatly separated from all your other interactions.

Well, of course you're right. I only meant to say we still have a lot of fun and don't fight like many couples would in our situation.

[ssmguy]

sorry but I've truly experienced low libido, and I still had sex with my h. For him mostly. B/C HE wanted/needed it. That was enough of a reason and I'm not heroic.

Well, that's admirable. I wish my wife had the same attitude. It would have allowed me to try to make it more pleasurable.

[25yearsmlc]

I finally told her I feared she would lose her h, b/c I had not heard of any happy couples not having sex, by unilateral choice.

you said:
Well, there certainly are couples where both are happily in agreement not to have sex. But I'm sure that's not the norm.


but you missed the point-the word "unilateral"...I don't think there are happily married couples wherein one of them unilaterally chooses to deny the other one, important sex and physical intimacy.

And it's definitely not the "norm" to call a couple happy, when one wants sex often and the other never "allows" it...that ain't happy...

That is one person giving up an important part of themselves permanently...and not even getting an explanation of loving concern.

You said Quote:
She claimed she was happier just going straight to intercourse after some brief kissing. I think that was to avoid all the touching that she never allowed.


Okay...you said this before. She told you she did not like to be touched in certain places, that happen to be sensitive places. So, ever wonder why?

I mean those are pleasure centers so it's physically odd to not want to be touched there BUT they can easily be mishandled or groped or roughly treated...

look, I don't want you to be the jerk here, but she's not here and she's not all at fault AND

I'm tired of the circular talk...how "Stuck" you have been with your "gift" of sexual frustration and what she "allowed"/"refused to try", etc...
What is it that you want to know?

You also said:

But even in retrospect, how could I have made it better when she refused all sexual touching aside from straight missionary intercourse? And I could
certainly perform that as well and as long as she wanted.



IDK what to say here.

You "enjoy" your sexual frustration -you call it a gift.

So A part of me feels as if You almost revel in this discussion re your "high libido and how it never wavers" ever-(while admitting, obviously, this ability is not exactly "tested" outside a certain context)

but "she wouldn't allow" your love making skills to please her...

hey- you keep avoiding the real issue.

"However long you can go", or "perform as well as she wished"...

if your w refuses to give herself to you, you have a decision to make.

IF having sex with HER is that important to you (and I'm not sure it is, frankly) then

Why are you here & What do you want to do?

How can we help?

[Patsi]

Hi,

[ssmguy]

Happy, unhappy.... whatever you want to call it if you want to put a single label on it. What we've managed better than most in our situation is to seperate the sexual issue. Sure, it's a big issue for me. But I separate it from a lot of other things that are good. Is that so hard to understand?

Yes, I've wondered why she wouldn't let me touch her in places. But because of lack of experience and not knowing about the SA, at first I thought it was just shyness on her part. When I was young I wasn't really sure when, how, how intensly etc. pleasure centers worked for women. Now I know better, but only through books, videos and what people have told me.

The question is simply what can I do and what can she be convinced to do to solve the problem. I'm not interested in who's at fault.

Sorry I mentioned anything about any "gift" and that you're tired of reading this. I didn't say I enjoyed my sexual frustration. If you think you're tired of reading this, imagine how tired I am of trying to solve the problem.

So what do you think is the real issue I'm avoiding?

You seem to want to find contradictions in what I say, as if that's the key here. What I've said it pretty straight-foward, or so it seems to me. Why would the problem need to be deep psychological issues on my part? Not saying that's not possible, but I've been through a lot of therapy so far. I'm in a difficult situation in terms of what I want and what I don't want to give up. To put it in perspective, compared to solving this problem, finding a new high-paying job a few months ago in this economy was easy by comparison.

What do I want? Just to be heard. Mostly I get what I want by just reading these boards and saying nothing. It helps me get a perspective on the inside view of other marriages and their problems. I wish I had had this perspective earlier in my marriage when I didn't know better than to assume that things were pretty much normal evey time I heard a joke about woman always having headaches on the Tonight Show.

[25yearsmlc]

Happy, unhappy.... whatever you want to call it if you want to put a single label on it. What we've managed better than most in our situation is to seperate the sexual issue. Sure, it's a big issue for me. But I separate it from a lot of other things that are good. Is that so hard to understand?

Gosh SSM I am sorry but it IS hard for me to understand. It just is. It's a big part of my m and if my h were in a wheelchair, I swear we'd manage to find a way. So that's my perception.


Yes, I've wondered why she wouldn't let me touch her in places. But because of lack of experience and not knowing about the SA, at first I thought it was just shyness on her part. When I was young I wasn't really sure when, how, how intensly etc. pleasure centers worked for women. Now I know better, but only through books, videos and what people have told me.

The question is simply what can I do and what can she be convinced to do to solve the problem. I'm not interested in who's at fault.

Good to keep the focus off of blame...as long as the differences get their attention.

Sorry I mentioned anything about any "gift" and that you're tired of reading this. I didn't say I enjoyed my sexual frustration. If you think you're tired of reading this, imagine how tired I am of trying to solve the problem.

Re-read your post. You called your high libido (and the frustration) a gift. And you do talk a lot about your ability to "perform" at length and with frequency,

but it's referring to you being sexual, alone. So I don't know how relevant it is.


So what do you think is the real issue I'm avoiding?

You seem to want to find contradictions in what I say, as if that's the key here. What I've said it pretty straight-foward, or so it seems to me. Why would the problem need to be deep psychological issues on my part?

SOMETIMES, I think you want permission to leave her, or cheat on her or

you want us to praise you for not changing something important in your m.

That's what I don't get b/c we are all about solutions to marital problems here, not just saying I have this big problem but I won't do anymore about it b/c I already did...

You say sex is importatnt o you and you talk of all the lacking there is, with your high libido versus her low one, only to then say "but we are fine otherwise." So, idk what to do with that.


Not saying that's not possible, but I've been through a lot of therapy so far. I'm in a difficult situation in terms of what I want and what I don't want to give up. To put it in perspective, compared to solving this problem, finding a new high-paying job a few months ago in this economy was easy by comparison.

What do I want? Just to be heard.

Then just say that^^.

You "wish" things would change but, You are not sure you want anything to change if it means rocking the boat too much...that choice is YOURS & yours alone, and I am not trying to make it for you.
---

I wish I had had this perspective earlier in my marriage when I didn't know better than to assume that things were pretty much normal evey time I heard a joke about woman always having headaches on the Tonight Show.

From the women I know who openly discuss sex, there are fewer headaches than television suggests.

(Or Maybe the shows are written by men and it's their perceptions?) What I know, is that these women mostly like sex and the closeness it provides.

[greenblue90]

Well until the true expert YAH chimes in I'll throw my two cents.

Sounds to me like for years you have been accepting "table scraps". She gives you a little to get you off her back, not really realizing that she is conditioning you to come back begging for more.

You have been accepting bad sex, with the notion than any is better than nothing. You have created, an expectation that bad (or partial) sex is good enough. This bad forced sex just made things worse and she cut you off. It's quite typical actually.

Of course the real issue here is the SA. You'll never make progress unless she learns to love herself, and then by extension you. Does she masturbate? Is she comfortable with her own body, does she ever bother to dress sexy for herself? Weight and self esteem issues?

I skimmed through your thread and read that once in counseling she completely shut down when confronted about her own issues. She avoids her issues to avoid unresolved pain. It's easier to paint you as the deviant than deal with her own issues.

Hell she'd rather buy you soft core porn than deal with her own trouble. I'm not a middle aged woman but I can tell the root cause is her not you.

Now that being said what can YOU do about it? Well step one would have been to no longer accept table scraps, but too late for that isn't it. She made that choice for you already.

You say you have tried to let her know how this makes you feel but clearly her insecurities are stronger than any concern she may have for you. Is this someone you'd like to be married to?!

You are entitled to your libido whether you choose to sacrifice it or not for her is up to you.

Which brings me to my next question, how the heck can you keep the sexual issue away from the rest of your M. I can see how and why your W does it, the SA. What about you? What keeps you in the M? Is all this worth sacrificin your sexual needs? I think valid questions which some have asked. Are you afraid of being alone? I wonder this since I am tempted to apply the "nice guy syndrome" label to you. Yet something is off. I don't know check out the book there's definitely a chapter about getting the sex you want, and not settling for scraps.

Another read that comes to mind is passionate marriage by schnarch. Almost pretty sure she won't go for it. Yet I'm reminded of the chapter where he convinced a woman to start masturbating and take control of her sex life. Once she felt in charge she was more comfortable sharing herself. I don't know some ideas.