Are there any midlife women who want daily sex?

[ssmguy]

Gosh SSM I am sorry but it IS hard for me to understand. It just is. It's a big part of my m and if my h were in a wheelchair, I swear we'd manage to find a way. So that's my perception.

Good to hear. That's the kind of feedback that has been helpful to me, to know that many women are different from my wife in their approach to this problem.

Re-read your post. You called your high libido (and the frustration) a gift. And you do talk a lot about your ability to "perform" at length and with frequency,

Sorry, the "it" had closer proximity in the paragraph to frustration than libido.

SOMETIMES, I think you want permission to leave her, or cheat on her or

No, I'm not that passive that I need permission etc.

you want us to praise you for not changing something important in your m.

No, not really looking for praise or permission.

That's what I don't get b/c we are all about solutions to marital problems here, not just saying I have this big problem but I won't do anymore about it b/c I already did...

So what do you want me to do? Repeat things?

From the women I know who openly discuss sex, there are fewer headaches than television suggests.

(Or Maybe the shows are written by men and it's their perceptions?) What I know, is that these women mostly like sex and the closeness it provides.

I just heard a statistic from some national survey that about 20% of married couples in the US have sex less than 10 times a year, or something like that, and that the actual national average is sex only once a week for married couples. From which I would surmise the average husband is masturbating more often than he is having sex with his wife. Or is my math off?

I really get the impression that young couples often talk a lot about how much sex they are having because they think they are unusual when they read these national surveys. But when the babies, the jobs, the house chores, the in-laws, the schools, and the after-school SUV chauffering all start up, the sexual frequency pretty much plummets to near zero and stays there for many couples. At which point they keep their mouths shut about their sexual frequency. And for too many men, it's back to the porn they thought they'd never need again when they first met their wives.

If only I could enjoy porn more! ;-) I tell you, one of the most amazing things was to learn of another couple we know where the guy was struggling with porn addiction. What stunned me was that his wife was full of positive energy and loved sex, not to mention she was also very attractive, and ... get this... she couldn't get him to ML with her. What the #$%&???? It made me realize just how different my perspective could be from another man, never mind a woman.

[ssmguy]

Wow, greenblue90, a lot of what you say seems to ring true. If it's the SA, and her inability to deal with it, well, that's where I feel quite helpless and discouraged. She's been to therapy about it, and, well, it doesn't seem to have gotten our sex life to where it should be. I'm just left with the gut-wrenching realization that in the real world, not all therapy is successful, and in some cases, may never be.

Of course the real issue here is the SA. You'll never make progress unless she learns to love herself, and then by extension you. Does she masturbate? Is she comfortable with her own body, does she ever bother to dress sexy for herself? Weight and self esteem issues?

Never masturbated to O as far as I know. Some comments long ago about trying once. Yeah, no kidding, just once. Any comments that she should try, or let me try, are utterly dismissed. She simply won't allow any discussion to even begin going down that road.

Yes, she dresses sexy and asks for my opinion. But it's kind of look-but-don't touch at this point.

No weight issues, we both exercise a lot. Esteem outside of these issues seems fine.

Which brings me to my next question, how the heck can you keep the sexual issue away from the rest of your M.

Well, that is one thing that our couples therapy did help us with. We learned to keep the sexual issues from affecting everything else. We made that successful first step very well. To stop the blaming and all that. But that's where the therapy stalled completely and she didn't want to go further.

I can see how and why your W does it, the SA. What about you? What keeps you in the M? Is all this worth sacrificin your sexual needs?

Well, perhaps you can see it more from my viewpoint if I rephrase the question. Are my sexual needs worth throwing away/splitting up my marriage, the solid and positive relationship I have with the in-laws, our properties, schooling responsibilties, vacations, memories, etc. You're talking about all these changes for what... just so dad can have sex in a room where nobody else can see him a few times a week? No, correction, just so dad can have sex with another person in the same room, not just with his Playboy calendar?

I never thought I'd see "friends with benefits" in such a positive practical light as I do these days! And "open relationships", etc. I can see where some of those situations come from now.

I think valid questions which some have asked. Are you afraid of being alone?

Not really, because I can enjoy doing things by myself for periods of time, and I also know I'd get a huge kick out of dating. It's more what I'm giving up that matters to me. I've just seen way too many other parents where they just "move on", often with the shallow advice of friends and therapists, and leave a trail of broken emotions and situations, just so they can pursue their "happiness". And often the new situation turns runs into similar problems, if it doesn't fall apart completely. And often they wish they could go back to their old days again.

[ssmguy]

What about you? What keeps you in the M?

And I forgot to say, because it's too obvious to me, I still love my wife. I can see the difficulty she's going through, and that it's so difficult she can't talk about it. And we'd both feel horrible about splitting up. I've asked her about that, and she doesn't want a divorce either.

So then what do you do? You're just stuck.

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

"Unless or until she changes her mind about this or this marriage comes to an end, I see no path out."

Yep, you drew a line in the sand, didn't you? How's that working for you?

Of course it would seem like that to you you. While I understand the metaphor, there is no sand except the beach where I've been this weekend and there is no line. However, using that metaphor, I am far less likely to draw "a line in the sand" than those around me.

As for how it's working for me...so far I've kept my sanity and haven't walked away from the marriage. I have a housemate to share some experiences with. On the *expectation* of sex within the context of marriage (and it is an expectation, not a legal requirement), I am disappointed.

There is also some history here; she did much the same thing to her second husband by withholding sex while spending "his money" on stuff to intentionally irritate him (and he was a much more "controlling" character than I am) while sleeping with her first husband (unbeknownst to husband no 2. Husband no. 1 walked away from that first marriage). When husband no. 2 was offered a promotion that included a move to a new city, she drew the "line in the sand" to tell him she (and her daughter by husband no. 2) was not going. That ended the marriage (all before I met her).

Or how about this after we got married? My son was struggling with this and both my ex-wife and my new wife knew this (now both his parents were married to someone else and the desire to have your parents together is a real one). Part of this was also being 12-13 years old. Yet, my current wife was dissatisfied with my *parenting* on this issue and told me that she could "not stand to be around him." And she said that when he was at our new house (usually on weekends) she would not be there.

It did not take me long to see how toxic that situation was. On weeknights, it was easy to see him according to the agreement between my ex-wife and I since I worked only a few minutes away from where she lived (and where I used to live). Without getting into details, I explained to him and my ex-wife that things were very, very difficult over in my household and that I thought it best that I limit the time that he spent in my household. That eliminated some portion of the interactions that took place prior to the marriage.

The compromise I came up with was that I would spend many of my weekend days and some evenings with him doing things that were important to his development and time with his father. Ultimately this meant that my wife (and her daughter, his stepsister) did not see him or any of the things that he was involved with. For seven years there was inclusion in this blended family prior to the marriage and all of a sudden there was none. There was only one interaction when my stepdaughter graduated high school and the next one when my son graduated.

So who "drew the line in the sand?"

From here, I cannot imagine being your W and starting a sexual R with you. You sound extremely passive aggressive. You've locked a no-win situation in stone. Her libido is at 0, and you require her to both initiate and be horny and enjoy sex for anything to be different. It is not going to happen.

Of course you can't because it does not fit what you think you know. I said nothing about her having to be horny, you assume that is a prerequisite. Yet there is a statement of fact that she has to initiate.

As I have pointed out (and I think I've mentioned more than once in my past writings), my concern was that if we did not do something to give sexual intimacy some level of importance, that it would slip away and we would end up with a non-sexual marriage. I said it to her more than once both before and after I violated her boundaries. That is something that she recently acknowledged was a concern on my part.

She also acknowledges the agreement to the way we would proceed, though she says now she wishes we had not done it that way. As I have said before, we agreed to a procedure (after she accepted my apology and reason why I persisted and violated her personal boundaries) by discussing various issues that included the sexual ones. That procedure included acceptance ("yes" on some point or issue) that likely included room for expansion, counter-offer (which was a no or partial no with "how about this as an alternative to consider"), and rejection (a "no" on some point or issue that closes the issue). And according to the procedure we agreed to, only the person who declines or rejects an offer could reopen it for discussion (hence, the reasoning why I had not no further discussion with her about our sex life or made any comments about being in a sexless marriage. Technically, discussing it here is a violation of that agreement).

She admitted that she did not expect me to literally follow the agreement we outlined and she also expected me to break my promise (to not bring this up or to complain about it) given how important sex seemed to me and my experience in my previous marriage.

She acknowledges that she withdrew permission for me to be sexual with her (and reminded me that I don't have permission to be sexual with anyone else, which is the only reason why this conversation between her and I came up). But that point was reaffirmed, I do not have permission.

So while I said I missed the closeness that we once experienced, that I knew (and did not say) that once she said she was unwilling to give any commitment to sexuality (after six months of discussions) that she would never attempt to initiate sex with me again (I wrote that down contemporaneously) and she admitted that on occasion she missed that closeness, she could not explain why she was unwilling to even approach the topic with me (she called it an irrational fear).

This from a therapist who is trained to identify and deal with people's issues and to develop strategies to deal with "irrational fears."

Do you think after 14 years it is time to quit stubbornly sulking and try something different?

How about an apology? "W, I let us both down, I am deeply sorry. 14 years ago I didn't respect your boundaries. When you tried to enforce them, I reacted badly. Then I tried to force the answer I wanted from you about a commitment for sex, and when I didn't get it, I made it extreme in my own head. I made believe that you said that you would never have sex with me again and that if I ever tried to change that you would count that as me ignoring "no means no." But you didn't say that. I have been stubbornly sulking for 14 years. I have been waiting for you to come over to me and make it all better. Instead, I should have let go of my fiction years ago and tried to be a partner to you, including being a sexual partner, instead of a stubborn, sulking, self-indulgent needy boy. I've been working on changing that, on being a better man. With that has come a wait loss. And with that comes a man who insists on having a better partnership with his W, including a better sexual partnership. I love you, I miss you, I ache for you. Let me have space to learn and grow. Hear my apology. Let us heal."

I have to get on the road and drive back through some heavy rain but I haven't been sulking, needy, or stubborn on this. I've been silent. I've put no threat or pressure on her about this.

Her boundaries are her boundaries, they always have been. Even if we don't act on it immediately, the first step is for her to give permission to be sexual once again. With her now at age 65 and me at 58, with her no longer having a uterus and ovaries for whatever hormones might mitigate this, this "apology," many parts of which I have already provided would be unlikely to move anything.

For her QVC seems preferable to being with me. Just an observation

The Captain

[25yearsmlc]

ssm

you wrote:


I just heard a statistic from some national survey that about 20% of married couples in the US have sex less than 10 times a year, or something like that, and that the actual national average is sex only once a week for married couples. From which I would surmise the average husband is masturbating more often than he is having sex with his wife. Or is my math off?

I think your math is off AND the statistics need context. 20% of marriages only have sex 10 times a year

may include seniors who cannot have sex much, physically,

AND moreover, it does not say that "one wants it and one doesn't".

I won't argue with a couple not having sex if they BOTH are fine with it...who would? To each his own, etc. But you took it to mean that one was being denied it...interesting.

As for how often h's take care of their own needs, I can't answer for men.

But when my h is tired from working 30 hours on his feet in an operating room,
I think it's b/c he's tired and his libido is lower! ( I know He's not getting a "no" from me,)
so what I'm saying is that you are interpreting the "only once a week" as meaning that all the men want it more, and the w's are keeping the number low. AND, I don't think so.

My h has said "no" to me, at least as often as I've said no to him. In his residency, the drop in our sex life (4 years) was almost all due to him.

Sometimes I took it personally, but usually I threw myself into an activity (for me, theater was a way to have passion in my life that was safely channelled, when h was simply too busy or tired, and it helped me a lot).

So if our numbers drop to once a week (and after the birth of our 2nd child with my full time job, and his in med school) the numbers did drop,

but that was temporary and situational. Not a life time habit.
I think--

Couples surveyed ought to be asked their ages, their children's ages, their work status, how each partner handles "rejection" if it is delivered as that, and then ask if they are both fine with the frequency.

Those are the things that really matter.

[ssmguy]

I won't argue with a couple not having sex if they BOTH are fine with it...who would? To each his own, etc. But you took it to mean that one was being denied it...interesting.

Just find it very hard to believe there are enough men who are happy with sex so infrequently that the AVERAGE marital sex is only once per week. And that those men don't masturbate?! Well, who knows, I haven't talked much with other guys about this. A week is the longest I've ever gone without (not including my pre-teen years, of course), and that was just a few rare circumstances.

But when my h is tired from working 30 hours on his feet in an operating room,
I think it's b/c he's tired and his libido is lower! ( I know He's not getting a "no" from me,)
so what I'm saying is that you are interpreting the "only once a week" as meaning that all the men want it more, and the w's are keeping the number low. AND, I don't think so.

OK, I believe you. Still don't quite understand that from a man's point of view though, but I accept the fact that men are not all the same. Sure, tired from working 30 hours, but that's nowhere near a week? And being tired makes me want sex even more sometimes, as it's both a stress reliever and relaxing.

Maybe partly explains why I sometimes drove my wife nuts.

[25yearsmlc]

I won't argue with a couple not having sex if they BOTH are fine with it...who would? To each his own, etc. But you took it to mean that one was being denied it...interesting.

Just find it very hard to believe there are enough men who are happy with sex so infrequently that the AVERAGE marital sex is only once per week.

But when my h is tired from working 30 hours on his feet in an operating room,
I think it's b/c he's tired and his libido is lower! ( I know He's not getting a "no" from me,)
so what I'm saying is that you are interpreting the "only once a week" as meaning that all the men want it more, and the w's are keeping the number low. AND, I don't think so.

OK, I believe you. Still don't quite understand that from a man's point of view though, but I accept the fact that men are not all the same. Sure, tired from working 30 hours, but that's nowhere near a week? And being tired makes me want sex even more sometimes, as it's both a stress reliever and relaxing.



SSM
if my h were on his feet monitoring a patient, which is physically/mentally demanding, for 30 hours

and yet wanted to make love, I'd say yes. But theres no way he won't be exerting himself... At least not if I'm participating!

maybe later it's "relaxing" and relieves stress...but not then.

And when he says he's tired, he seems to need to sleep. We're pretty open about our moods and neither of us take it too personally if one is not up to it. (But recently b/c of his reserves, we are apart 3 days a week and so maybe we make up for that later?)

Read SSM chapter on this site. It covers a lot of your questions and basically says that many men with normal/high sex drives, can and do get distracted and stressed and fatigued by things.

But making love takes energy and time if they are going to feel good about satisfying their wives. The quickies are not time consuming but they can be frustrating for the w's.

While "Servicing" themselves is easier for men, I'm sure, it's not always what those men want.

But MWD's main point is mine...no one cares if you both are fine with having no sex, a little sex or a lot.

But MWD posits that pretending it's not important to one spouse, when it IS,

deprives the m of a vital aspect. It ends a lot of m's. Causes lots of A's.

You know, there's no one here, including me, that is saying it's wrong of you to

take care of your own needs and not be "with" your w sexually,

if that's okay with YOU both. And It has been so far.

Has something changed?


Maybe partly explains why I sometimes drove my wife nuts.

[ssmguy]

You know, there's no one here, including me, that is saying it's wrong of you to take care of your own needs and not be "with" your w sexually
if that's okay with YOU both. And It has been so far.

No, it has not been OK at all. That's the one thing about our marriage that is not OK. I guess it's hard for some people to understand that one can apply the word "happy" to any part of the marriage if the sex is not working. Which is funny because I've heard so many women say that "sex isn't everything"!

[Cyrena]

SSMGuy,

Don't forget that people like yourself and Tea, who haven't had married sex for major portions of your life, bring down the statistics considerably!

[TeaEarlGreyHot]

25....

It looks like both SSMGuy and I have some difficulty in explaining the perspective of both loving a person AND having a this sexual portion of our relationship be completely unsatisfactory. Let me suggest that the difficulty comes from seeing things they way you are (and the way you see it and would react) rather than the way we are about our sex lives. In comparison to our current situations, I think either of us would find the attitude that you've shared a refreshing choice.

I'll see if I can provide an analogy that makes sense.

Let's say I wanted to explain the concept of balance on a bicycle. I can describe all the actions and motor skills needed to coordinate the act of powering, steering, braking, speed control, etc. to keep the bicycle upright and I can say that if you can take all those steps and not fall over, that you've achieved *balance* but I really haven't described balance or the sensation of balance, have I? And if you've never ever ridden a bicycle, there is no experience reference to tap into to *know balance*.

Those of us whom have been through these long droughts of sex and the lack of inimacy associated with sex know, experientially, what that is like internally, just like if you've ridden a bicycle, there is an experience of balance that you can tap into.

Another analogy...chess. I can tell you all the moves the individual pieces can make and the rules associated with those moves (white moves first, "check" occurs when the king is put into direct threat of being captured by an opposing piece, checkmate occurs when the king is both under threat of being captured but is unable to be moved to a position on the chess board where the king is no longer "in check," the checking of the king must always be answered in the responding move, the king can never be moved into check, etc.). I can also point out the various outcomes (a win is secured by checkmate of the opposing king or the resignation of the opposing king, loss is when you are checkmated or resign, a draw where both parties agree there is no easy path to a win though a win/loss would likely occur if one plays long enough, and then a stalemate where a king is not in check but there are no moves available that would not put the king in check).

And you would know the rules of the game. Ironically, the queen is the most powerful piece on the board in terms of the range of moves available whereas the king is allowed to plod along only one square at a time. But knowing the rules of the game does not mean that you "know chess" or understand the game. Oh, you can play, and with another inexperienced player you might be able to play along for quite a while. It is far more difficult to see the board in a way where both strategy and tactics come together and that comes with experience.


In that way, I understand what SSMGuy is speaking of in that our experiences are similar and we've both developed a level of love for our spouses that is powerful enough to keep us from just walking away because of the lack of sex. We can love them and still not let the absence of sexual intimacy destroy our relationship.

Yet he, like I, know there is something missing from our relationships. We have a differing view of how *good* our sex lives were with our respective spouses. And where he brings up inexperience (and by extension a certain naivety) in the early days of his relationship and the perceived sexual satisfaction, I'm willing to bet it was not so much the act or the physical orgasm that became valued as it was the intimacy that extended from and through the sexual act. It wasn't about jumping up and saying "okay, we're done." It was about laying there being with one another. And lets face it, there is nothing quite like that experience. OTOH, my sexual experience with my two wives at the beginning were outstanding (even if my first wife was the one to whom I gave up my virginity, I made up for lack of experience pretty quickly).

These intimate experiences are also what part of what built the love we feel today and the absence is what we miss...if they can be redeveloped and how they can be redeveloped. And there is a choice to be made in the context of a lot of other issues, to what extent we allow the lack of sex to dominate or even destroy a marriage.

However, extending the chess analogy, what we have been dealing with is the changing of the rules, what pieces can be played, when, etc.

Finally, there is a duality that we deal with where we love our spouses and yet when we look carefully at this specific topic and the lack of sex and intimacy, we can be extremely dissatisfied and discouraged. I would love to bring back some level of normalcy. We are both far enough down the road that the express or implied claims that we are getting what we deserve just aren't useful.

The Captain